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As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was buil

by nacc 10y ago

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost side-by-side to traditional railways. This idea horrored almost everybody: new railways for 10s of thousands kms, new train stations (yes for most of the place it needs a separate station), just to be a bit faster? Of course it got a constant concensual blaze from both the citizens and all the official and unofficial media. This state maintains from the beginning of the project all the way a couple years into it operates (which spans many years). The head of the project, Liu Zhijun had to be in jail of course. Then everything changes, 180 degree. People took the trains and realize it's great. What I (and probably many people too) didn't know before was with the speed increase, the perception of distance changes. The trains run like buses: between major cities, the train runs across in every several minutes. You can just get a ticket, go to the station, an hour later you are on the subway of another city. Many times when we were holding a meeting, people from other cities actually took less time to arrive than someone driving from suburbs. Then the new railway network gets praise from both national and overseas. The official media shut up about Liu. People start to think Liu as a fanatically great engineer. I cannot imagine how this project can even get started, and what Liu had to do to get this to work. There must have been a great story, but we may never know.

sandworm101 10y ago
But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account food and lodging). If you need to attend a wedding more than a few hundred km away, you are going to consider flying. But high speed rail networks in many countries (uk, france) are either extreemly expensive or massively subsidized. All i see are suited office workers heading to jobs in downtown cores. The carbon footprint of high speed rail, while not as bad as air, also remains much higher than other ground options. Speed always comes at some price.
- mtw 10y ago
  This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    I have. I bought tickets and they were very expensive. Im flying vancouver-sf round trip next month for 1/3 the price i paid for london-paris a few years back. Doing the math again today, round trip paris-london on eurostar is 600$ in my money (320bp on eurostar site +fees +conversion to cad, leaving next monday). Vancouver-sf by air can he had for 275$ (corporate account, no visible discount).
    - gpderetta 10y ago
      Every time I made the trip, the train London-Paris was cheaper than the corresponding air travel (and significantly more pleasant).
    - FabHK 10y ago
      You can get a round-trip on the Eurostar for USD 140 in Economy, maybe USD 200 for popular departure times. That brings you right in the middle of the city, unlike a flight. There's a reason the Eurostar is popular.
    - joelwilliamson 10y ago
      I just checked the Eurostar prices. A ticket for London-Paris tomorrow and Paris-London on Wednesday can be had for $247. If you book a month ahead of time, it's below $50 one-way.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - gsnedders 10y ago
      If the Eurostar were typically that expensive, then its competition (both aviation and coaches/ferries) would be absolutely crushing it in the market, and they aren't, which suggests that that is unusual.
neolefty 10y ago
I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Six lines have started to make operating profits (ie, not counting construction costs), with the Beijing-Shanghai link the world’s most profitable bullet train, pulling in 6.6bn yuan last year. But in less populated areas, they are making big losses. A state-run magazine said the line between Guangzhou and the province of Guizhou owes 3bn yuan per year in interest payments—three times more than it makes from ticket sales. I wish it weren't so, but they look like Iridium, as mentioned by a very-downvoted comment. The builder makes enormous losses. But they're built now, and that isn't going to be undone. I hope.
- mozumder 10y ago
  Are these supposed to make a profit? Isn't this a state-run project, like highways? Aren't the debts covered by the state anyways, via taxes? Also, economic justifications are broad concepts.. how would it compare against a country like the US that has oil and people can therefore drive cars for cheap, whereas China doesn't have oil? Is high-speed rail a more economically efficient system than cars?
  - MarkMc 10y ago
    > Are these supposed to make a profit? Isn't this a state-run project, like highways? Yes, high-speed rail could be worthwhile even if it doesn't make a profit. I haven't seen any figures about high-speed rail so it may be a good investment. But in general I think China's investment boom is bad in the long term. By taking on so much debt to fund projects that have little economic return China is setting itself up for a lost decade or two like Japan. > Aren't the debts covered by the state anyways, via taxes? Yes, the debt is effectively passed on to taxpayers. > Also, economic justifications are broad concepts.. how would it compare against a country like the US that has oil and people can therefore drive cars for cheap, whereas China doesn't have oil? Sure, you need to look at the economy as a whole and the cost of energy is a factor. But that would include the cost of coal-fired power to run the trains - including costs of pollution. > Is high-speed rail a more economically efficient system than cars? China already had slow-speed trains and fast airplanes. So the better comparison is between (a) upgrading the capacity of the existing rail and airport systems; (b) building an entirely new rail network.
wang0109 10y ago
I don't get why the part where Liu Zhijun had to be in jail. Fast trains are intrinsically a great thing for China. People don't just "realize" it's great because of Liu or anybody else. Your "then" logic is misleading. Liu got into jail because embezzlement and favors from project contractors, at least that was part of the story, aside political factions.
- est 10y ago
  Because Liu is basically a railway enthusiast but in power. In order to push projects ASAP he bribed everyone thoroughly. Each time a new HSR line is open he is the first passenger, and once on Chinese New Year eve he traveled to distant small rail stations and fire drunk station masters on premise.
- nacc 10y ago
  Maybe I should explain better. I think with a project receiving so much opposition both from the government and citizens, I imagine Liu would have to use extraordinary methods to push it forward, which will hurt the power players hard (especially those who created the opposing voice). The embezzlement and favours are usually just an excuse. Most people with power (at least in China) get away with it even if everyone knows about it. It only become important when someone who don't like you gets more power.

by nacc 10y ago

sandworm101 10y ago

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account food and lodging). If you need to attend a wedding more than a few hundred km away, you are going to consider flying. But high speed rail networks in many countries (uk, france) are either extreemly expensive or massively subsidized. All i see are suited office workers heading to jobs in downtown cores. The carbon footprint of high speed rail, while not as bad as air, also remains much higher than other ground options. Speed always comes at some price.

mtw 10y ago
This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research
- sandworm101 10y ago
  I have. I bought tickets and they were very expensive. Im flying vancouver-sf round trip next month for 1/3 the price i paid for london-paris a few years back. Doing the math again today, round trip paris-london on eurostar is 600$ in my money (320bp on eurostar site +fees +conversion to cad, leaving next monday). Vancouver-sf by air can he had for 275$ (corporate account, no visible discount).
  - gpderetta 10y ago
    Every time I made the trip, the train London-Paris was cheaper than the corresponding air travel (and significantly more pleasant).
  - FabHK 10y ago
    You can get a round-trip on the Eurostar for USD 140 in Economy, maybe USD 200 for popular departure times. That brings you right in the middle of the city, unlike a flight. There's a reason the Eurostar is popular.
  - joelwilliamson 10y ago
    I just checked the Eurostar prices. A ticket for London-Paris tomorrow and Paris-London on Wednesday can be had for $247. If you book a month ahead of time, it's below $50 one-way.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - gsnedders 10y ago
    If the Eurostar were typically that expensive, then its competition (both aviation and coaches/ferries) would be absolutely crushing it in the market, and they aren't, which suggests that that is unusual.

neolefty 10y ago

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Six lines have started to make operating profits (ie, not counting construction costs), with the Beijing-Shanghai link the world’s most profitable bullet train, pulling in 6.6bn yuan last year. But in less populated areas, they are making big losses. A state-run magazine said the line between Guangzhou and the province of Guizhou owes 3bn yuan per year in interest payments—three times more than it makes from ticket sales. I wish it weren't so, but they look like Iridium, as mentioned by a very-downvoted comment. The builder makes enormous losses. But they're built now, and that isn't going to be undone. I hope.

mozumder 10y ago
Are these supposed to make a profit? Isn't this a state-run project, like highways? Aren't the debts covered by the state anyways, via taxes? Also, economic justifications are broad concepts.. how would it compare against a country like the US that has oil and people can therefore drive cars for cheap, whereas China doesn't have oil? Is high-speed rail a more economically efficient system than cars?
- MarkMc 10y ago
  > Are these supposed to make a profit? Isn't this a state-run project, like highways? Yes, high-speed rail could be worthwhile even if it doesn't make a profit. I haven't seen any figures about high-speed rail so it may be a good investment. But in general I think China's investment boom is bad in the long term. By taking on so much debt to fund projects that have little economic return China is setting itself up for a lost decade or two like Japan. > Aren't the debts covered by the state anyways, via taxes? Yes, the debt is effectively passed on to taxpayers. > Also, economic justifications are broad concepts.. how would it compare against a country like the US that has oil and people can therefore drive cars for cheap, whereas China doesn't have oil? Sure, you need to look at the economy as a whole and the cost of energy is a factor. But that would include the cost of coal-fired power to run the trains - including costs of pollution. > Is high-speed rail a more economically efficient system than cars? China already had slow-speed trains and fast airplanes. So the better comparison is between (a) upgrading the capacity of the existing rail and airport systems; (b) building an entirely new rail network.

wang0109 10y ago

I don't get why the part where Liu Zhijun had to be in jail. Fast trains are intrinsically a great thing for China. People don't just "realize" it's great because of Liu or anybody else. Your "then" logic is misleading. Liu got into jail because embezzlement and favors from project contractors, at least that was part of the story, aside political factions.

est 10y ago
Because Liu is basically a railway enthusiast but in power. In order to push projects ASAP he bribed everyone thoroughly. Each time a new HSR line is open he is the first passenger, and once on Chinese New Year eve he traveled to distant small rail stations and fire drunk station masters on premise.
nacc 10y ago
Maybe I should explain better. I think with a project receiving so much opposition both from the government and citizens, I imagine Liu would have to use extraordinary methods to push it forward, which will hurt the power players hard (especially those who created the opposing voice). The embezzlement and favours are usually just an excuse. Most people with power (at least in China) get away with it even if everyone knows about it. It only become important when someone who don't like you gets more power.