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Curiously, the article mentions Icelandic for æ, but not for ð or þ, which are still on regular use in modern Icelandic, pretty much in the same Old English me
by ptaipale 10y ago
Curiously, the article mentions Icelandic for æ, but not for ð or þ, which are still on regular use in modern Icelandic, pretty much in the same Old English meaning of dental fricatives (ð is voiced, þ is voiceless).
- vesinisa 10y agoIndeed, and œ would be close Icelandic ö (in ASCII-only systems umlaut ö is still often rendered as oe). The 'yogh sound' for words like 'loch' is really the only one altogether missing from modern Icelandic.
- runarberg 10y agoI always presumed that the œ ligature was later collapsed into ø, which is how Danish and Norwegians write the letter ö.
- arnarbi 10y agoö in Icelandic and Swedish is phonetically equivalent to ø in Danish and Norwegian. However the æ in Danish and Norwegian is like the OE one described in the article, between a and e, which is written ä in Swedish. Icelandic does not have that sound, and uses æ in the Latin way, representing the ai diphthong (as in English "fine"). The more common vowels also have fairly different pronunciations in the four languages.
- dwc 10y agoSpeaking of þ, it has a role is the oddball "Ye" in "Ye Olde ..." form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde#History
- duality 10y agoThanks for linking this. I'd read previously that the use of the letter y in "ye olde..." was from simplifying the typesetting of thorn but the article here claims eth was used in the original spelling. Is there more to the story or is the article wrong?
- ascotan 10y agoYea I read that too. It might have been wrong. It appears (from this author) that eth was the 'hard TH' (say: that) and thorn was the 'soft TH' (say: with)
- laretluval 10y agoEth and thorn were interchangeable in Old English. The article is incorrect.
- fnj 10y agoThe th sound in that is exactly the same as the th sound in with.
- grzm 10y agoIt depends on dialect. In American English, the th in that is voiced; /ðæt/ http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/that http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/th... In my dialect, the th in with is unvoiced, though it looks like it is voiced in others: /wɪð/ /wɪθ/ http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/with http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/wi...
- caf 10y ago"thin" might be a better example that is more consistently pronounced with the unvoiced 'th'?
- grzm 10y agoIndeed, thin is the examplar given in Wikipedia for /θ/. It also has further explanation of th is sometimes voiced and sometimes unvoiced depending on context. One thing to note is that some English speakers pronounce /ð/ and /θ/ as allophones, likely due to their identical orthography. At the beginning and middle of words, it becomes voiced /θɪn/ and /θɪŋ/ (thin and thing) becoming /ðɪn/ and /ðɪŋ/, respectively. At the end of words, it remains unvoiced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative th-fronting always catches my attention as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th-fronting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th-fronting
- masterofcookies 10y agoJust a small clarification: in OE ð and þ were used interchangeably. Between voiced sounds they were pronounced as in Modern English "then", otherwise as in Modern English "thin".
- edblarney 10y agoThe 'issue' is that English is not really it's own language :) Or rather, it's a relatively modern language. 1000 years ago there would have been forms of Germanic, Scandinavian and French being spoken - and 'English' developed as a mangle of those. The proper French people I know do not consider English to even be a proper language. :_
- ptaipale 10y agoUnfortunately that French attitude is also somewhat apparent in the way many French people speak English. English is not really its own language, so not worth learning properly. (Or at least learn a pronunciation that is close enough to be understood.)
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 10y agoAnd many English people are racist towards French people as well. Let's not encourage either group...
- edblarney 10y agoI don't think its racist for a French person to consider 'English' to not be a language proper. The French lady who made the comment made her case remarkably well.