3 ms·

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reaso

by bostand 10y ago

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

kristianc 10y ago
The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.
- bostand 10y ago
  Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.
  - walterstucco 10y ago
    not many, of the original EU founders only Sweden hasn't adopted euro. The other 6 out of 25 that are not using the euro are all ex communist countries. and other two (Monte negro and Kosovo) adopted euro without being part of EU.
    - bostand 10y ago
      So you agree that it is by no means mandatory? Also, Denmark?
      - walterstucco 10y ago
        No, I don't. All the non euro countries are working to be admitted, because going forward is the only way. Brits and Dansk are crazy people, who cares what they do. edit: all the non euro countries from the eastern block signed to adopt euro in the future.
        bostand 10y ago
        > All the non euro countries are working to be admitted Now you are just making things up. Edit: then you should rethink using Wikipedia as your source because that is not accurate. EU cannot force countries to join new treaties this way. The EC may really really want to, but they have no legal right to.
        walterstucco 10y ago
        > Now you are just making things up No, I'm not, it's part of the treaties. Can't you lookup things on Wikipedia? Is it to hard for you? "The other nine members of the European Union continue to use their own national currencies, although most of them are obliged to adopt the euro in future."
    - blibble 10y ago
      what? Sweden joined in 1995. Denmark and the UK are examples of other EU states that were not communist that do not use the Euro
      - walterstucco 10y ago
        UK has never been EU. Sweden was among the founder states when Euro was born, not the original states forming EEC in 1957. Denmark is in ERM-II and its Krone has a EU controlled exchange rate against euro. It is possible to be outside euro, but not advisable, the main market for the east non-euro countries is the EU zone, if euro falls down, their fragile economies will follow.
        AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        > UK has never been EU. What? I'm trying to find any context where that statement makes sense, and I can't do so. UK has never used the Euro, but that's not what "EU" means.
  - bjelkeman-again 10y ago
    Can't reply to the reply, but Sweden is not a founder of the EU.
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      I expanded my answer. I wasn't talking about the treaty of Rome.
  - kristianc 10y ago
    Whether they're 'doing fine' wasn't the question at hand - it was whether the economies had harmonized with the rest of the EU.
- krona 10y ago
  And the effect is an insolvent banking system, mass unemployment in southern Europe and an inflation 'Horror-Kurve' in Germany. In effect, It's creating even larger imbalances than those it was trying to avoid.
DrNuke 10y ago
You are speaking of a big Germany master state here, not the European Union whose foundational goal was to avoid wars and live in harmony.
stale2002 10y ago
Exactly! Give back control of borders to countries, and just run the EU like a NAFTA free trade zone. Bam, best of both worlds!
- bostand 10y ago
  Oh yes, the "EU, give us back control of our borders" rhetoric. Your CAN have border control right now, in fact many northern European countries have border control among themselves today.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Actually, that kinda changed in September 2016 – because in the refugee crisis the countries were unable to control the outer EU borders properly, the EU got control of the national borders in September 2016, with the establishment of a European Border and Coast Guard: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/09/14-european-border-coast-guard/ http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/... EDIT: I can’t respond to your comment, but please read the article.
    - bostand 10y ago
      Nope, EU countries have always had the possibility of border control (with some limitations). Its just that not having border control is cheaper and allowing people work across birders is good for the economy. So basically until late 2016 the pros outweighed the cons.
      - stale2002 10y ago
        This isn't true... Poland has decided to close its borders to immigrants, and the EU wants to fine them 250k an immigrant for it. The whole reason Brexit happened is because Britain wants to implement border controls. Edit, Proof: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refugee-quota/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countr... Just get rid of these fines, and quotas, and give people control of their borders back.
majewsky 10y ago
> The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part. Not all of them. I recall that the countries that joined after 2000 have a clause in their accession treaties that forces them to join the euro-zone once certain economic indicators pass certain thresholds.

by bostand 10y ago

kristianc 10y ago

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

bostand 10y ago
Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.
- walterstucco 10y ago
  not many, of the original EU founders only Sweden hasn't adopted euro. The other 6 out of 25 that are not using the euro are all ex communist countries. and other two (Monte negro and Kosovo) adopted euro without being part of EU.
  - bostand 10y ago
    So you agree that it is by no means mandatory? Also, Denmark?
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      No, I don't. All the non euro countries are working to be admitted, because going forward is the only way. Brits and Dansk are crazy people, who cares what they do. edit: all the non euro countries from the eastern block signed to adopt euro in the future.
      - bostand 10y ago
        > All the non euro countries are working to be admitted Now you are just making things up. Edit: then you should rethink using Wikipedia as your source because that is not accurate. EU cannot force countries to join new treaties this way. The EC may really really want to, but they have no legal right to.
      - walterstucco 10y ago
        > Now you are just making things up No, I'm not, it's part of the treaties. Can't you lookup things on Wikipedia? Is it to hard for you? "The other nine members of the European Union continue to use their own national currencies, although most of them are obliged to adopt the euro in future."
  - blibble 10y ago
    what? Sweden joined in 1995. Denmark and the UK are examples of other EU states that were not communist that do not use the Euro
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      UK has never been EU. Sweden was among the founder states when Euro was born, not the original states forming EEC in 1957. Denmark is in ERM-II and its Krone has a EU controlled exchange rate against euro. It is possible to be outside euro, but not advisable, the main market for the east non-euro countries is the EU zone, if euro falls down, their fragile economies will follow.
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        > UK has never been EU. What? I'm trying to find any context where that statement makes sense, and I can't do so. UK has never used the Euro, but that's not what "EU" means.
- bjelkeman-again 10y ago
  Can't reply to the reply, but Sweden is not a founder of the EU.
  - walterstucco 10y ago
    I expanded my answer. I wasn't talking about the treaty of Rome.
- kristianc 10y ago
  Whether they're 'doing fine' wasn't the question at hand - it was whether the economies had harmonized with the rest of the EU.
krona 10y ago
And the effect is an insolvent banking system, mass unemployment in southern Europe and an inflation 'Horror-Kurve' in Germany. In effect, It's creating even larger imbalances than those it was trying to avoid.

DrNuke 10y ago

You are speaking of a big Germany master state here, not the European Union whose foundational goal was to avoid wars and live in harmony.

stale2002 10y ago

Exactly! Give back control of borders to countries, and just run the EU like a NAFTA free trade zone. Bam, best of both worlds!

bostand 10y ago
Oh yes, the "EU, give us back control of our borders" rhetoric. Your CAN have border control right now, in fact many northern European countries have border control among themselves today.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Actually, that kinda changed in September 2016 – because in the refugee crisis the countries were unable to control the outer EU borders properly, the EU got control of the national borders in September 2016, with the establishment of a European Border and Coast Guard: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/09/14-european-border-coast-guard/ http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/... EDIT: I can’t respond to your comment, but please read the article.
  - bostand 10y ago
    Nope, EU countries have always had the possibility of border control (with some limitations). Its just that not having border control is cheaper and allowing people work across birders is good for the economy. So basically until late 2016 the pros outweighed the cons.
    - stale2002 10y ago
      This isn't true... Poland has decided to close its borders to immigrants, and the EU wants to fine them 250k an immigrant for it. The whole reason Brexit happened is because Britain wants to implement border controls. Edit, Proof: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refugee-quota/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countr... Just get rid of these fines, and quotas, and give people control of their borders back.

majewsky 10y ago

> The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part. Not all of them. I recall that the countries that joined after 2000 have a clause in their accession treaties that forces them to join the euro-zone once certain economic indicators pass certain thresholds.