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> The whole concept of ownership is based on social contract Except a social contract is not a contract at all. There's no offer, no acceptance, no considerati

by smokeyj 10y ago

> The whole concept of ownership is based on social contract Except a social contract is not a contract at all. There's no offer, no acceptance, no consideration, no capacity to contract, etc. > Theft, because it is rooted in ownership, is thus a relative construct I don't disagree here. But I'd like to see the social contract be an actual contract that you opt-into. Specifically, one that can be arbitrated on and dissolved upon violating terms of the agreement. Of course there's a million reasons why people would disagree with that statement. Which is fine, but let's not pretend the government and governed have a voluntary relationship established in some sort of contract.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> Except a social contract is not a contract at all Fine, don't call it a social contract. Call it a foo. People, collectively wielding more power than any individual, agreed on a set of rules that make collective life better (in the view of those people). These rules are the foo. If you are in the geography where these people, your fellow citizens, have power then you must follow the foo or face consequences. If you don't like the foo, you can leave. > I'd like to see the social contract be an actual contract that you opt-into How would you propose enforcing laws? The U.S. Constitution and its ensuing legal corpus is the law of the land. If you don't like it, you can "opt out" by leaving.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  > Fine, don't call it a social contract. Are you saying that because you agree? Because that was the only point I was making.. We can all agree that gangs, mafias and cartels have collective power and use the threat of force to govern territories. The distinction we're making is whether these cartels constitute a "legitimate" government - whatever that means. I think legitimacy should be measured by consent (crazy idea I know), and that not leaving a territory doesn't constitute consent. Mexican families living in cartel-land do not give consent because they're too poor to leave. Because a said cartel provides "protection" from other cartels does not mean a service was provided. I'm just asking people reason about government in principle, rather than in terms of what they think a government should be.
  - JumpCrisscross 10y ago
    > Are you saying that because you agree? No. I just find discussing ideas more meaningful than arguing definitions. > "legitimate" government - whatever that means Don't handwaive this away. The boot-up process, which builds founding myths and their related constructs, is integral as much as with any other venture. Ignore it and you will be advocating for the unrealistic (e.g. "everyone signs a contract at 18 or gets banished") or the abominable (e.g. "we will have an efficient, culturally homogenous society once we kill the Jews").
- EdHominem 10y ago
  > If you don't like the [law], you can leave. If the law is just. Otherwise it's literally a Crime Against Humanity to force that choice on someone. We recognize that a person cannot be deprived of statehood. (Or, put in a situation where they must deprive themselves of their own statehood to escape, such as threatening them for their religion, sexual orientation, etc.)

by smokeyj 10y ago

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> Except a social contract is not a contract at all Fine, don't call it a social contract. Call it a foo. People, collectively wielding more power than any individual, agreed on a set of rules that make collective life better (in the view of those people). These rules are the foo. If you are in the geography where these people, your fellow citizens, have power then you must follow the foo or face consequences. If you don't like the foo, you can leave. > I'd like to see the social contract be an actual contract that you opt-into How would you propose enforcing laws? The U.S. Constitution and its ensuing legal corpus is the law of the land. If you don't like it, you can "opt out" by leaving.

smokeyj 10y ago
> Fine, don't call it a social contract. Are you saying that because you agree? Because that was the only point I was making.. We can all agree that gangs, mafias and cartels have collective power and use the threat of force to govern territories. The distinction we're making is whether these cartels constitute a "legitimate" government - whatever that means. I think legitimacy should be measured by consent (crazy idea I know), and that not leaving a territory doesn't constitute consent. Mexican families living in cartel-land do not give consent because they're too poor to leave. Because a said cartel provides "protection" from other cartels does not mean a service was provided. I'm just asking people reason about government in principle, rather than in terms of what they think a government should be.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > Are you saying that because you agree? No. I just find discussing ideas more meaningful than arguing definitions. > "legitimate" government - whatever that means Don't handwaive this away. The boot-up process, which builds founding myths and their related constructs, is integral as much as with any other venture. Ignore it and you will be advocating for the unrealistic (e.g. "everyone signs a contract at 18 or gets banished") or the abominable (e.g. "we will have an efficient, culturally homogenous society once we kill the Jews").
EdHominem 10y ago
> If you don't like the [law], you can leave. If the law is just. Otherwise it's literally a Crime Against Humanity to force that choice on someone. We recognize that a person cannot be deprived of statehood. (Or, put in a situation where they must deprive themselves of their own statehood to escape, such as threatening them for their religion, sexual orientation, etc.)