8 ms·

I really hope they open source the NT kernel, or at least part of it. This makes me really excited about the future of Windows!

ealexhudson 10y ago
In all honesty, I wouldn't be that surprised if that happened at this stage - I don't know that they would have much to lose, but they'd potentially have an awful lot to gain.
- mrweasel 10y ago
  I suspect that large part of Windows, perhaps not the kernel, but many of the required subsystems, are written by 3rd. parties and licensing will prohibit an open source release of Windows.
  - xorblurb 10y ago
    There definitively are some third party components in Windows, but I believe in the core most is either written directly by MS or at least the copyrighted (or its handling) is transferred to them. Parts of an old NT kernel has already been published for a limited audience (mostly education and research, with some additional prereq and with the need of an explicit licence), so probably it can be done again.
  - bostand 10y ago
    The kernel is full of third party libs too.
- patrickaljord 10y ago
  They still make money on every single pc/laptop that ships with windows which is still their biggest money maker with office. If they truely open source windows (BSD or else) it will be free to ship for OEM and Microsoft will lose one of their biggest source of income. tl;dr: not gonna happen
  - keevie 10y ago
    Open source doesn't mean free....
    - kowdermeister 10y ago
      Be realistic, the next day 10 forks would appear distributing it for free.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Windows is always pirated distributed for free doesn't mean they don't violate copyright laws and other restrictions. One can buy an oem or restricted region license for windows for 20$ but legally it's about the same as pirating it.
    - tormeh 10y ago
      Technically not, but look at CentOS. We'd have a knock-off Windows from Samsung or whatever in less than three months. Edit: Every OEM would have their own spin, for differentiation. Lenovo too...
    - patrickaljord 10y ago
      Actually it does mean free to redistribute, this is the essence of the BSD or even GPL licenses. And free to redistribute (for free) would be a huge loss for windows. Therefor, not happening.
  - wongarsu 10y ago
    Android is open source, and still (nearly) everybody is locked into Google's version with licensing costs. Google open-sourced nearly everything, while managing to make their "apps" so entrenched that every customer expects them and even a lot of apps don't work without them.
    - taneq 10y ago
      > Google open-sourced nearly everything Nearly everything about Android the operating system. Android the app platform is deeply tied to Google Play Services, which is not open source and is once more deeply tied to Google's online services. And they've re-routed apps' access to basic phone data like GPS, camera and microphone through Google Play Services, so that if you want to use any app that uses those services you also have to let Google log those data. It's almost as bad as tivoization from the FOSS perspective, while also invading your privacy. Yay.
- DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
  IANAL, but I expect it would open Microsoft up to countless patent, and perhaps copyright, lawsuits.
- wongarsu 10y ago
  If the license isn't extremely restrictive about what you can do with the source and your knowledge of it, it would be a huge boost for Wine and ReactOS. Since those two are the biggest threat to Windows on the Desktop, I don't think Microsoft would risk that.
  - danieldk 10y ago
    If it's just the kernel and not the userland above it, I doubt it. Apple's open sourcing of XNU and Darwin was never an existential threat to Apple. The question is how much third-party code there is in the NT kernel. There may even be remainders of the cooperation with IBM tainting the source code (Windows NT did have an OS/2 personality at some point).
    - wongarsu 10y ago
      Based on what researchers who had access to the Windows kernel are saying, Windows has a decent amount of edge cases and special conditions to maintain backwards compatability with old software. For example if some popular software from 2000 abused some implementation detail that has since changed, Windows will detect that specific program and simulate old behaviour for it. I expect most of that stuff lives in the userland interfaces to the kernel, but at least Microsoft seems to consider those to still be kernel code.
      - xorblurb 10y ago
        If you think of kernel32 & friends, that's not actually considered kernel code. That is the "kernel" of Win32, which is mostly a userspace thing. The word kernel is just used in an overloaded way.
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  I'm not sure what would they gain, apart from "internet points" for being Good Guy Microsoft.
loopbacker 10y ago
GNU/Windows would be an entertaining prospect. I'd be amazed if they ever make it available under anything like a GPL or BSD style license.
throwawayish 10y ago
Some institutes at some universities have access to the NT source code for academic purposes. (Google "Windows Research Kernel" -- supposedly some academic entities have more access).
- nxc18 10y ago
  This is true. The program allowing this was active a few years ago, so the Windows research kernel is stuck at NT 5.2 (just before Vista). That makes it a decade old, but it is still a great tool for understanding the unique things about the NT architecture. The downside is that Windows has improved dramatically in ten years, so the old source can be misleading if not taken with proper perspective. People like to shit on Windows with claims that Linux does it better. Actually seeing the source and reading about the internals (anyone can do that last bit) let's you see in just how many places Linux was and still is playing catch up. Linux may have a better implementation for some use cases, but to claim architectural superiority is just crazy in my eyes. Anyway, the license for the WRK is actually quite open. Seeing it doesn't prevent you from contributing to open source projects, you can share it with anyone in a university setting, can keep it on your personal devices, and can share snippets of source code in blog posts, papers and the like. If you are eligible, willing to comply with the license, and can find someone who still has it (the hardest of the requirements) it's fair game. In my efforts I asked Microsoft for permission as well, but I didn't get the sense that was necessary (but shouldn't hurt). You can still build the WRK on modern Windows, or on the included Virtual PC Windows Server 2003 images. The output dll can be installed in place into compatible versions of Windows. The distribution includes a full OS course, the original internal design workbook (straight from Dave Cutler's hand, in the original .DOC!) and labs detailing how to modify/extend the most interesting part of the kernel. Source: I'm working on a tool/resource to make OS dev more accessible to students at my university (as well as to myself) and made vigorous efforts to procure the Windows Kernel for comparative purposes.
  - userbinator 10y ago
    I wouldn't say Windows has "improved dramatically in ten years" --- perhaps "changed" would be the right word for me; given how popular XP was, I'd say WRK is still quite relevant.
nxc18 10y ago
That would be an interesting concept. NT is a powerful operating system, but without the Windows Subsystem, it would be useless except as a drop-in replacement on Windows installations. This idea is probably more feasible than first glance would suggest, but still, I wouldn't hold your breath.
dethswatch 10y ago
? They're doing their best to be linux. I'm just moving to linux.

ealexhudson 10y ago

In all honesty, I wouldn't be that surprised if that happened at this stage - I don't know that they would have much to lose, but they'd potentially have an awful lot to gain.

mrweasel 10y ago
I suspect that large part of Windows, perhaps not the kernel, but many of the required subsystems, are written by 3rd. parties and licensing will prohibit an open source release of Windows.
- xorblurb 10y ago
  There definitively are some third party components in Windows, but I believe in the core most is either written directly by MS or at least the copyrighted (or its handling) is transferred to them. Parts of an old NT kernel has already been published for a limited audience (mostly education and research, with some additional prereq and with the need of an explicit licence), so probably it can be done again.
- bostand 10y ago
  The kernel is full of third party libs too.
patrickaljord 10y ago
They still make money on every single pc/laptop that ships with windows which is still their biggest money maker with office. If they truely open source windows (BSD or else) it will be free to ship for OEM and Microsoft will lose one of their biggest source of income. tl;dr: not gonna happen
- keevie 10y ago
  Open source doesn't mean free....
  - kowdermeister 10y ago
    Be realistic, the next day 10 forks would appear distributing it for free.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Windows is always pirated distributed for free doesn't mean they don't violate copyright laws and other restrictions. One can buy an oem or restricted region license for windows for 20$ but legally it's about the same as pirating it.
  - tormeh 10y ago
    Technically not, but look at CentOS. We'd have a knock-off Windows from Samsung or whatever in less than three months. Edit: Every OEM would have their own spin, for differentiation. Lenovo too...
  - patrickaljord 10y ago
    Actually it does mean free to redistribute, this is the essence of the BSD or even GPL licenses. And free to redistribute (for free) would be a huge loss for windows. Therefor, not happening.
- wongarsu 10y ago
  Android is open source, and still (nearly) everybody is locked into Google's version with licensing costs. Google open-sourced nearly everything, while managing to make their "apps" so entrenched that every customer expects them and even a lot of apps don't work without them.
  - taneq 10y ago
    > Google open-sourced nearly everything Nearly everything about Android the operating system. Android the app platform is deeply tied to Google Play Services, which is not open source and is once more deeply tied to Google's online services. And they've re-routed apps' access to basic phone data like GPS, camera and microphone through Google Play Services, so that if you want to use any app that uses those services you also have to let Google log those data. It's almost as bad as tivoization from the FOSS perspective, while also invading your privacy. Yay.
DoofusOfDeath 10y ago
IANAL, but I expect it would open Microsoft up to countless patent, and perhaps copyright, lawsuits.
wongarsu 10y ago
If the license isn't extremely restrictive about what you can do with the source and your knowledge of it, it would be a huge boost for Wine and ReactOS. Since those two are the biggest threat to Windows on the Desktop, I don't think Microsoft would risk that.
- danieldk 10y ago
  If it's just the kernel and not the userland above it, I doubt it. Apple's open sourcing of XNU and Darwin was never an existential threat to Apple. The question is how much third-party code there is in the NT kernel. There may even be remainders of the cooperation with IBM tainting the source code (Windows NT did have an OS/2 personality at some point).
  - wongarsu 10y ago
    Based on what researchers who had access to the Windows kernel are saying, Windows has a decent amount of edge cases and special conditions to maintain backwards compatability with old software. For example if some popular software from 2000 abused some implementation detail that has since changed, Windows will detect that specific program and simulate old behaviour for it. I expect most of that stuff lives in the userland interfaces to the kernel, but at least Microsoft seems to consider those to still be kernel code.
    - xorblurb 10y ago
      If you think of kernel32 & friends, that's not actually considered kernel code. That is the "kernel" of Win32, which is mostly a userspace thing. The word kernel is just used in an overloaded way.
kodfodrasz 10y ago
I'm not sure what would they gain, apart from "internet points" for being Good Guy Microsoft.

loopbacker 10y ago

GNU/Windows would be an entertaining prospect. I'd be amazed if they ever make it available under anything like a GPL or BSD style license.

throwawayish 10y ago

Some institutes at some universities have access to the NT source code for academic purposes. (Google "Windows Research Kernel" -- supposedly some academic entities have more access).

nxc18 10y ago
This is true. The program allowing this was active a few years ago, so the Windows research kernel is stuck at NT 5.2 (just before Vista). That makes it a decade old, but it is still a great tool for understanding the unique things about the NT architecture. The downside is that Windows has improved dramatically in ten years, so the old source can be misleading if not taken with proper perspective. People like to shit on Windows with claims that Linux does it better. Actually seeing the source and reading about the internals (anyone can do that last bit) let's you see in just how many places Linux was and still is playing catch up. Linux may have a better implementation for some use cases, but to claim architectural superiority is just crazy in my eyes. Anyway, the license for the WRK is actually quite open. Seeing it doesn't prevent you from contributing to open source projects, you can share it with anyone in a university setting, can keep it on your personal devices, and can share snippets of source code in blog posts, papers and the like. If you are eligible, willing to comply with the license, and can find someone who still has it (the hardest of the requirements) it's fair game. In my efforts I asked Microsoft for permission as well, but I didn't get the sense that was necessary (but shouldn't hurt). You can still build the WRK on modern Windows, or on the included Virtual PC Windows Server 2003 images. The output dll can be installed in place into compatible versions of Windows. The distribution includes a full OS course, the original internal design workbook (straight from Dave Cutler's hand, in the original .DOC!) and labs detailing how to modify/extend the most interesting part of the kernel. Source: I'm working on a tool/resource to make OS dev more accessible to students at my university (as well as to myself) and made vigorous efforts to procure the Windows Kernel for comparative purposes.
- userbinator 10y ago
  I wouldn't say Windows has "improved dramatically in ten years" --- perhaps "changed" would be the right word for me; given how popular XP was, I'd say WRK is still quite relevant.

nxc18 10y ago

That would be an interesting concept. NT is a powerful operating system, but without the Windows Subsystem, it would be useless except as a drop-in replacement on Windows installations. This idea is probably more feasible than first glance would suggest, but still, I wouldn't hold your breath.

dethswatch 10y ago

? They're doing their best to be linux. I'm just moving to linux.