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You're welcome to move to North Korea if you love the state so much. Yeah, it's not really a valid argument, is it.

by pitaj 10y ago

DannyBee 10y ago
Actually, it is. You choose to live in a country that has a constitution. You abide by that constitution. Like any sane government, you can change that constitution. That's "consent of the governed". But saying "things that people have consented to in the past, that i have not, are not binding upon me, and therefore taxation is theft" makes no sense. The world existed before you were born. You can leave the country at any time.
- pitaj 10y ago
  I didn't choose to be born in this country. I never gave my consent. > You can leave the country at any time. You seem pretty confident. But you're wrong. There are countless barriers to exit, especially if you are poor. Even if I could leave, there is no viable stateless territory on which I can live.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    "I didn't choose to be born in this country. I never gave my consent. " Talk to your parents, and their parents, and their parents, who did. Like i said, this is pretty much only a valid argument until age of majority. But note: even before then, you are taking advantage of the contract, which is the essence of implied consent in every legal system. ". There are countless barriers to exit, especially if you are poor." There literally are not. You may walk, all the way to a border, and exit, as many people have. You may not be accepted elsewhere, nor may you have a good time, but that is different, and changes nothing about consent. (remember that document you didn't consent to, that's the thing that tries to make it so you might have a good time here) "Even if I could leave, there is no viable stateless territory on which I can live. " Nor does this change anything about consent either. The fact that you want something does not mean that your inability to get it easily changes anything. Nothing has ever been easy. You want a viable stateless territory, go make one, by force if necessary. Heck, you are complaining about lack of consent, go get people to consent to one. Suck it up. Nothing in the above is a valid argument about you consenting or not, just an argument that "if i don't consent, life is tough." To which the answer is: Yes, yes it is. That's why we created governments in the first place.
    - pitaj 10y ago
      Parents can't consent for their children.
      - DannyBee 10y ago
        No human society in the history of human society has claimed this, because it's ridiculously stupid. If you want to claim this, okay. Great, parents can't consent for their children. Since the document you don't consent to is the only thing that makes it illegal for me to murder you, ..., it's now okay to go out and murder every child, because they haven't explicitly consented. Instead, of course, we discover that parents in fact, sanely consent for children until those children are capable of consenting or not consenting for themselves. We also discover the concept of implied consent, whereby people using the benefits of a contract have also consented to the burdens.
        pitaj 10y ago
        No. It's not okay, because the children did not consent to be murdered. Can a parent consent for the child to have sex? Of course not. A parent can't sign their child's life into debt. Parents can not consent for their children, especially when that consent entails being conscripted into military service, taxed, and being put in prison for possessing a plant.
        sokoloff 10y ago
        > A parent can't sign their child's life into debt. Student loans aren't actually very far away from that. (Not everyone taking out a student loan is over 18 or the local age of majority, which I realize that you haven't personally consented to what that age of majority should be.)
        tptacek 10y ago
        You should re-read Hobbes. Outside the social contract we live in the natural state of man, where our rights are to do whatever we think necessary to ensure our well-being, no matter the consequences to anyone else. Without a state, from where do you derive the right not to be murdered? The strength of your own limbs, and little else.

You're welcome to move to North Korea if you love the state so much. Yeah, it's not really a valid argument, is it.

by pitaj 10y ago

You're welcome to move to North Korea if you love the state so much. Yeah, it's not really a valid argument, is it.

Actually, it is. You choose to live in a country that has a constitution. You abide by that constitution. Like any sane government, you can change that constitution. That's "consent of the governed". But saying "things that people have consented to in the past, that i have not, are not binding upon me, and therefore taxation is theft" makes no sense. The world existed before you were born. You can leave the country at any time.

pitaj 10y ago
I didn't choose to be born in this country. I never gave my consent. > You can leave the country at any time. You seem pretty confident. But you're wrong. There are countless barriers to exit, especially if you are poor. Even if I could leave, there is no viable stateless territory on which I can live.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  "I didn't choose to be born in this country. I never gave my consent. " Talk to your parents, and their parents, and their parents, who did. Like i said, this is pretty much only a valid argument until age of majority. But note: even before then, you are taking advantage of the contract, which is the essence of implied consent in every legal system. ". There are countless barriers to exit, especially if you are poor." There literally are not. You may walk, all the way to a border, and exit, as many people have. You may not be accepted elsewhere, nor may you have a good time, but that is different, and changes nothing about consent. (remember that document you didn't consent to, that's the thing that tries to make it so you might have a good time here) "Even if I could leave, there is no viable stateless territory on which I can live. " Nor does this change anything about consent either. The fact that you want something does not mean that your inability to get it easily changes anything. Nothing has ever been easy. You want a viable stateless territory, go make one, by force if necessary. Heck, you are complaining about lack of consent, go get people to consent to one. Suck it up. Nothing in the above is a valid argument about you consenting or not, just an argument that "if i don't consent, life is tough." To which the answer is: Yes, yes it is. That's why we created governments in the first place.
  - pitaj 10y ago
    Parents can't consent for their children.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      No human society in the history of human society has claimed this, because it's ridiculously stupid. If you want to claim this, okay. Great, parents can't consent for their children. Since the document you don't consent to is the only thing that makes it illegal for me to murder you, ..., it's now okay to go out and murder every child, because they haven't explicitly consented. Instead, of course, we discover that parents in fact, sanely consent for children until those children are capable of consenting or not consenting for themselves. We also discover the concept of implied consent, whereby people using the benefits of a contract have also consented to the burdens.
      - pitaj 10y ago
        No. It's not okay, because the children did not consent to be murdered. Can a parent consent for the child to have sex? Of course not. A parent can't sign their child's life into debt. Parents can not consent for their children, especially when that consent entails being conscripted into military service, taxed, and being put in prison for possessing a plant.
        sokoloff 10y ago
        > A parent can't sign their child's life into debt. Student loans aren't actually very far away from that. (Not everyone taking out a student loan is over 18 or the local age of majority, which I realize that you haven't personally consented to what that age of majority should be.)
        tptacek 10y ago
        You should re-read Hobbes. Outside the social contract we live in the natural state of man, where our rights are to do whatever we think necessary to ensure our well-being, no matter the consequences to anyone else. Without a state, from where do you derive the right not to be murdered? The strength of your own limbs, and little else.