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Taxation is not theft. Can you explain to me how it's not theft? It's money taken from you whether you consent or not under threat of force. I suppose more tec

Taxation is not theft. Can you explain to me how it's not theft? It's money taken from you whether you consent or not under threat of force. I suppose more technically that's extortion, but there mere fact you get some services in return doesn't change the fact it's not voluntary and done under threat of force.

solarengineer 10y ago
I've wondered about this, and the other topic of "Why should a human recognise and heed borders?". My conclusions: a. Humans have evolved into socially needing to exist with each other. b. In general, the various societies across the world have different styles - democracy, dictatorship, kingdoms, capitalism, socialism,etc. c. In general, most of us have the choice of leaving a particular social group and then moving away to another social group. Somewhat easy to do within a country if you are a citizen or are authorised to do so. Somewhat difficult in some cases (e.g., you are not permitted to leave the country). d. If an individual doesn't agree with social norms and "laws", they may most likely still have the option to leave. They will need to relocate to some other place where they are permitted to do (or can get away with doing) what they want to do. If I live in a country, then my predecessors decided together to create a tax system whereby all residents contribute tax, and in exchange receive certain benefits. To prevent free-loading, tax is made mandatory. To ensure some form of proportionate taxation, there are tax slabs. If they are not receiving these benefits, then they need correct the situation. If they feel they are being over-taxed, then they need to present the reasons, and hopefully have sufficient auditing and electoral process in place to correct the over-taxation. If they don't like this and are not effective enough, they (mostly) have the options of reconciling to the situation, or of leaving.
- pitaj 10y ago
  So because predecessors decided something, the current state has the right to steal from me just because I was born here and haven't moved to another location where there is another state that does the same thing?
  - hnhg 10y ago
    Yes, you might as well complain that you never asked to be born.
  - Frondo 10y ago
    Correct, your parents consented to your citizenship here, and all its attendant obligations, when you were a child. They were your legal guardians and were permitted to do so.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Just to be clear - this is an argument of tax being beneficial, but is not in fact an argument of tax not being theft/extortion. Am I reading you right here?
marincounty 10y ago
It's in the eight admendment, and you decided to be a citizen. (You can give up your citizenship?) Now--the sixteenth admendment is violated all the time. (Excessive fines, blah, blah, no one seems to care? This is the real theft in our society, or in my world?)
DannyBee 10y ago
See my comment above. It's not theft because it is part of the constitution. The constitution was enacted by the people, not by a random force-bearing entity that is beating you up. Yes, it happened in the past. But the consent doesn't expire until people change the constitution (anything else is insane, as you could never form a government of any sort). Until then, those are the rules of the country, and living here means abiding by them. The argument that "i didn't vote on this personally and therefore i did not consent" is not sane. It may be a sane argument before say, age of majority. Even then you could be emancipated and leave. But once you hit age of majority, you are consenting by staying. Note that in basically every legal system that has ever existed, you are also consenting by exercising any other rights. Like any contract, you don't get to pick and choose what parts you consent too, you can either ratify the document as a whole and adopt the contract or not. But note: If you don't, this is the same document that enables folks to have the power to make it illegal for people to murder you, and enforce that, so ...
- pitaj 10y ago
  You can't just claim my consent. I don't consent by inaction, I don't consent because I was born here. I don't consent because my parents consented for me. No. There is no consent.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    Now you are just asserting things randomly that are false becuase you can't come up with a good argument Sorry! This is just "i don't agree with the collective's decision making process, and don't want to have to abide by it, or have to remove myself from it". Again, the document you refuse to consent to is literally the only thing granting you the benefit of being here.
    - pitaj 10y ago
      No. The document doesn't grant me the right to life. It doesn't grant me the right to own property. Everyone has natural rights. These are described in the declaration of independence and other documents. You don't have the right to take anything from me just because there's another person in the room. The state doesn't get special moral or justice exemptions just because it's a special type of group.
Frondo 10y ago
It's not theft because it is a legally established process for funding the government. You have a say in how taxation works, through the political process. You're part of this system and are fully free to work to end all taxation. And, you don't need to think that taxation is just, or fair, but it is in fact legal and applies to you until you either work to end it or move somewhere where it doesn't apply. Theft is the unlawful, extrajudicial taking of something without permission. Put simply: we all agreed to be taxed (for most of us, our parents agreed on our behalf when we were born), but theft happens without our agreeing to anything.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Again, the terrifying conclusion that being born in a huge geographic area means you consent to anything the state in charges of it does. Consider the implications of this...
  - Frondo 10y ago
    When you were a child, your parents consented on your behalf. When you reach the age of majority, you are free to revoke your consent by leaving the area and renouncing your citizenship. You really don't have to stay if you don't like the laws. You don't even have to move, if you can get enough people on board to changing them. You have a lot of options, but very few of them make "taxation is theft" into a meaningful sentence.

solarengineer 10y ago

I've wondered about this, and the other topic of "Why should a human recognise and heed borders?". My conclusions: a. Humans have evolved into socially needing to exist with each other. b. In general, the various societies across the world have different styles - democracy, dictatorship, kingdoms, capitalism, socialism,etc. c. In general, most of us have the choice of leaving a particular social group and then moving away to another social group. Somewhat easy to do within a country if you are a citizen or are authorised to do so. Somewhat difficult in some cases (e.g., you are not permitted to leave the country). d. If an individual doesn't agree with social norms and "laws", they may most likely still have the option to leave. They will need to relocate to some other place where they are permitted to do (or can get away with doing) what they want to do. If I live in a country, then my predecessors decided together to create a tax system whereby all residents contribute tax, and in exchange receive certain benefits. To prevent free-loading, tax is made mandatory. To ensure some form of proportionate taxation, there are tax slabs. If they are not receiving these benefits, then they need correct the situation. If they feel they are being over-taxed, then they need to present the reasons, and hopefully have sufficient auditing and electoral process in place to correct the over-taxation. If they don't like this and are not effective enough, they (mostly) have the options of reconciling to the situation, or of leaving.

pitaj 10y ago
So because predecessors decided something, the current state has the right to steal from me just because I was born here and haven't moved to another location where there is another state that does the same thing?
- hnhg 10y ago
  Yes, you might as well complain that you never asked to be born.
- Frondo 10y ago
  Correct, your parents consented to your citizenship here, and all its attendant obligations, when you were a child. They were your legal guardians and were permitted to do so.
lacampbell 10y ago
Just to be clear - this is an argument of tax being beneficial, but is not in fact an argument of tax not being theft/extortion. Am I reading you right here?

marincounty 10y ago

It's in the eight admendment, and you decided to be a citizen. (You can give up your citizenship?) Now--the sixteenth admendment is violated all the time. (Excessive fines, blah, blah, no one seems to care? This is the real theft in our society, or in my world?)

DannyBee 10y ago

See my comment above. It's not theft because it is part of the constitution. The constitution was enacted by the people, not by a random force-bearing entity that is beating you up. Yes, it happened in the past. But the consent doesn't expire until people change the constitution (anything else is insane, as you could never form a government of any sort). Until then, those are the rules of the country, and living here means abiding by them. The argument that "i didn't vote on this personally and therefore i did not consent" is not sane. It may be a sane argument before say, age of majority. Even then you could be emancipated and leave. But once you hit age of majority, you are consenting by staying. Note that in basically every legal system that has ever existed, you are also consenting by exercising any other rights. Like any contract, you don't get to pick and choose what parts you consent too, you can either ratify the document as a whole and adopt the contract or not. But note: If you don't, this is the same document that enables folks to have the power to make it illegal for people to murder you, and enforce that, so ...

pitaj 10y ago
You can't just claim my consent. I don't consent by inaction, I don't consent because I was born here. I don't consent because my parents consented for me. No. There is no consent.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  Now you are just asserting things randomly that are false becuase you can't come up with a good argument Sorry! This is just "i don't agree with the collective's decision making process, and don't want to have to abide by it, or have to remove myself from it". Again, the document you refuse to consent to is literally the only thing granting you the benefit of being here.
  - pitaj 10y ago
    No. The document doesn't grant me the right to life. It doesn't grant me the right to own property. Everyone has natural rights. These are described in the declaration of independence and other documents. You don't have the right to take anything from me just because there's another person in the room. The state doesn't get special moral or justice exemptions just because it's a special type of group.

Frondo 10y ago

It's not theft because it is a legally established process for funding the government. You have a say in how taxation works, through the political process. You're part of this system and are fully free to work to end all taxation. And, you don't need to think that taxation is just, or fair, but it is in fact legal and applies to you until you either work to end it or move somewhere where it doesn't apply. Theft is the unlawful, extrajudicial taking of something without permission. Put simply: we all agreed to be taxed (for most of us, our parents agreed on our behalf when we were born), but theft happens without our agreeing to anything.

lacampbell 10y ago
Again, the terrifying conclusion that being born in a huge geographic area means you consent to anything the state in charges of it does. Consider the implications of this...
- Frondo 10y ago
  When you were a child, your parents consented on your behalf. When you reach the age of majority, you are free to revoke your consent by leaving the area and renouncing your citizenship. You really don't have to stay if you don't like the laws. You don't even have to move, if you can get enough people on board to changing them. You have a lot of options, but very few of them make "taxation is theft" into a meaningful sentence.