11 ms·

Games Criminals Play – How You Can Profit By Knowing Them

126 points by zackattack 16y ago

etherael 16y ago
The thing that confuses me about these scenarios is that it seems to assume too much on the part of the inmates, that they have the ability to make all these extremely minor character judgements and manipulate a person who holds absolute power over them to the extent that they have them enthralled. If they truly have such powers, why are they not somewhere else other than prison?
- zackattack 16y ago
  1) Prison guards don't have absolute power over the cons 2) The cons don't have them entirely enthralled, but as I mention in the article, severely weakened over time, and vulnerable enough to succumb to minor rules violations that the cons use as leverage against the guards - to extract major favors 3) A lot of criminals are very intelligent and if they were born in an affluent suburb in Connecticut, they would probably end up just as powerful as many businessmen/politicians. Some criminals end up working their way out of prison and end up very powerful. Look at YM/CMB as a great example of this. (Except Lil Wayne is in jail now on a gun charge because it's all tied up with his "hood" image.)
  - andyjdavis 16y ago
    Also the inmates have basically an unlimited amount of time to think things over. They have all the time in the world to go back over past events and plan for the future interactions. The guard may not think twice about a particular conversation while the inmate may spend the next 24 hours going over it in their head and figuring out an angle. If they're not switched on and maybe a bit paranoid the guard may not realize that what they think is a conversation is actually a science experiment with them as the subject. Working with people who can spend every waking moment figuring out how to get into your head could be frightening.
  - roel_v 16y ago
    Who is YM/CMB? Google shows a bunch of rappers, but is there actually one that calls himself "YM/CMB"? I guess that guy drank too much of the Web 2.0 naming coolaid ("Street 2.0"?)
    - zackattack 16y ago
      Young Money / Cash Money Business. Also c.f. Young Money Entertainment.
    - CWuestefeld 16y ago
      that guy drank too much of the Web 2.0 naming coolaid That would be "Horsedick.MPEG" from the movie Miss March. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_March
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  1: who says every inmate is doing it wholly consciously, with each step planned? 2: there are many guards and many inmates. Some inmates succeed with some guards, not all inmates with all guards.
- yardie 16y ago
  Prisons are full of psychopaths and sociopaths. You've probably worked amongst some of them in your life. Think of the guy that everyone hates but has managed to get himself locked into the heartbeat of the company. Sociopaths aren't out to get power through material wealth, but by exploiting character flaws. They'll find someone easily influenced, kiss ass until they have solid relationship and then exploit the shit out of it.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Some of them are really, really smart people who grew up in situations that didn't allow them to get anywhere except by this kind of manipulation. And they have nothing else to do, every day, for years. I knew a guy once who had worked as a guard at a maximum-security prison in Kentucky. Their prisoners were this kind of guy - often brilliant. He said you literally couldn't leave a candy wrapper in their cell because they would make a knife of it (not joking, this was his very example, and he knew a guy who'd been cut with just such a knife) and try to escape. Even knowing they couldn't escape, they just had nothing better to do with their time. And they've got a lot of time.
  - eru 16y ago
    By the way, do you know what prisoners are allowed to do with their time? I guess they are technically allowed to have books. How about computers, or even internet access? Historical anecdote: In the 19th century there was this German inventor and entrepeneur, named Ernst Werner von Siemens. He took part in a duel and was sentenced to a (mild form of) prison. He used the time there to make several inventions. And at the end he even asked for extending his sentence.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      I think it entirely depends on the prison.
petewarden 16y ago
If you're interested in the strange working relationship between guards and prisoners, I highly recommend Newjack: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newjack:_Guarding_Sing_Sing?wasRedirected=true http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newjack:_Guarding_Sing_Sing?w... The author is a journalist who was refused access to Sing Sing, so he joined the prison service as a guard there for a year.
- jrockway 16y ago
  I just finished reading that book, and it doesn't sound like the relationship that this blog post implies at all. He said he sympathized with the inmates a bit (and let them break minor rules), but he didn't bring any contraband in. (And interestingly, the book makes prison sound a lot nicer than I would have imagined. Less rules than the residential high school I went to, anyway...)
  - petewarden 16y ago
    No, but he does discover that the guard/prisoner relationship is a lot more complex than he expected, relying for the most part on subtle persuasion and negotiation by the guard not raw coercion. He also show how much time prisoners devote to getting inside their guards' heads, since they often were manipulative and amoral personalities on the outside and now they have nothing else to vent those skills on.
nandemo 16y ago
This brings up the notion of sex in the presence of the female, while making the inmate himself appear non-threatening. The way to nip this in the bud is for the female guard to say that any sexual talk in her presence is neither appreciated nor appropriate. This sounds hilarious to me, in a "you can't fight in here! This is the War Room" sense. Are female guards common in prisons for males in the US?
- pyre 16y ago
  Well he did say that the book is from 1981...
teaspoon 16y ago
Holding up the D.E.N.N.I.S. system as an example of successful manipulation kind of torpedoes the credibility of your interpretation. Did you finish the episode?
- zackattack 16y ago
  It's never ceteris paribus. Are you familiar with polynomials? Ax^i + By^j + Cz^k? It's the same concept. :)
malbs 16y ago
The article was interesting to me because I have a friend who is a Prison Guard. He regularly tells stories about working in the system, about the prisoners, and about his work mates. With the prison system here in Australia, he says there is a genuine drive to get rid of hard-ass prison officers, and replace them with what he calls "yes men", who will back down from any potential engagement with prisoners, because it is essentially bad publicity for the prison system, and the media loves to jump on prison violence (especially caused by the guards). In this the guards are already coming from a weak position because the inmates can actually use the media attention to their advantage Anyways I'm getting off track, but my mate refers to himself as part of the old school system, where if you care to break the rules at all, it will be met with swift and violent retribution at the guards hands in the form of some sort of midnight visit. This is all being phased out though, as I already mentioned in the previous paragraph. Also, the inmates definitely know the system, and know how to get around the justice system - There was a recent riot in the local prison here, where the prisoners attacked two of the guards, but even though the prisoners knew there was CC TV on them, they simply covered their faces with towels as to avoid identification. Now the guards could identify them based on mannerisms on camera (the way they walked/moved, used weapons), however it didn't go to trial because the the video was the only evidence, and a prosecution would never get a jury to convict because mannerisms would never be enough to identify the perpetrators. Kind of a long winded way of saying the prisoners know what they can get away with, very well. I asked him what would have happened if the prisoners had actually killed one of the guards, and he said well they would have got away with murder. Scary place, he certainly earns his 90k per year. Sorry for the long winded response!
- louislouis 16y ago
  Very insightful comment. No need to apologize.
- bjelkeman-again 16y ago
  I wonder if one could use gait recognition software in a situation like this, to identify a person? When do we want software "proof" to be used in court? Do we already?
barrybe 16y ago
Here are some of the ways that a blogger will try to manipulate you into purchasing a book. First, the post presents itself as a harmless and useful source of information. There's nothing to lose, and you might be informed or at least entertained if you keep reading. The story spans several different aspects of human behavior. At some point, it might touch on something that you've personally experienced, which makes you more interested in the post. As the post goes on, it begins to accumulate reasons why the topic is important, and how it can potentially affect you and your life. Before you know it, you begin to feel like you can't afford to ignore the provided advice. Then finally, the trap is set! An affiliate link is posted, and all you have to do to feel better about the situation is whip out your credit card. Here's how you can avoid buying a book that you don't really want: 1) Recognize the signs 2) Use a web site that allows comments to publicly mock the blog post. Not only does this give you the enjoyment of being a jackass, you can transform your reticence into a noble cause. I hope this advice has been helpful!
- zackattack 16y ago
  I'm humbled that my post was powerful enough to elicit this kind of personal expression. Or are you usually this good?
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    I guess no one ever told you that the worst thing you can possibly do to an American is to trick them into reading a book.
    - theorique 16y ago
      LOL! Reminds me of this track / video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8 (Read A Book by Bomani Armah)
    - eru 16y ago
      What makes you think barrybe is an American?
javanix 16y ago
I'm not convinced that most of the inmates have quite that level of sophistication, but anyone who's dealt with a particularly effective bully will recognize the kinds of psychopathic behavior depicted.
- puredemo 16y ago
  Yeah, this sounds more like AIG or Goldman Sachs.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    How so?
    - puredemo 16y ago
      Well, they gradually gained the public trust in the financial sector. Then they proceeded to threaten the country with financial and economic ruin if massive amounts of publics funds weren't transferred to them.
      - anamax 16y ago
        > Then they proceeded to threaten the country with financial and economic ruin if massive amounts of publics funds weren't transferred to them. Did they? From the outside, it looked more like "those institutions are too vital, so we're going to pump money in and tell them how to do things" from govt officials. Which reminds me - the US financial institution bailout is close to break even with the exception of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (which the Dems insist on pouring more money into - they voted down liquidation early this week). GM and Chrysler aren't even close.
        eru 16y ago
        > Which reminds me - the US financial institution bailout is close to break even [...] At least if you are only looking at the costs that have been accounted for.
yason 16y ago
Two things come to my mind: - I would be a terrible correctional officer; and - it is certainly a whole another world where people learn to apply their obviously available intelligence and emotions first in a false way and secondly, then being able to pull the plug and turn against the "duck" with these extortions. Anecdotally, if I was imprisoned and I started to befriend an officer, my loyalty to him would grow as well as his loyalty to me. I wouldn't be able to pull such a stunt that would potentially get him fired and mess up his life if he didn't bring me pot.
- eru 16y ago
  Perhaps that's why you didn't land in prison in the first place? Or it works the other way round, and your views change when you are in prison?
- FluidDjango 16y ago
  On the other hand, the proportion of sociopathic personalities in a prison is probably much higher than in an HN thread... And sociopaths are less likely to be burdened with empathy/loyalty/etc.
mhb 16y ago
Handmade prison escape tools and weapons: http://trinixy.com/28-handmade-prison-escape-tools-and-weapons-24-photos.html http://trinixy.com/28-handmade-prison-escape-tools-and-weapo...
sethg 16y ago
The next step is testing: violating minor rules, asking for things that are not supposed to be given. They test for the resilience of the guards and are also playing to what in psychology is called the “foot in the door phenomenon”: people who do a small favor for you are more likely in the future to do larger favors for you. I am reminded of the teachers’ maxim “don’t smile before Christmas”, i.e., establish yourself as a firm disciplinarian at the beginning of the school year, and you can be more flexible once the students recognize that you aren’t a pushover.
mcantor 16y ago
I feel like posts such as this one say some pretty scary things about intimacy in general, even honest intimacy.
leif 16y ago
> the con will first touch the duck accidentally ... wow

126 points by zackattack 16y ago

The thing that confuses me about these scenarios is that it seems to assume too much on the part of the inmates, that they have the ability to make all these extremely minor character judgements and manipulate a person who holds absolute power over them to the extent that they have them enthralled. If they truly have such powers, why are they not somewhere else other than prison?

zackattack 16y ago
1) Prison guards don't have absolute power over the cons 2) The cons don't have them entirely enthralled, but as I mention in the article, severely weakened over time, and vulnerable enough to succumb to minor rules violations that the cons use as leverage against the guards - to extract major favors 3) A lot of criminals are very intelligent and if they were born in an affluent suburb in Connecticut, they would probably end up just as powerful as many businessmen/politicians. Some criminals end up working their way out of prison and end up very powerful. Look at YM/CMB as a great example of this. (Except Lil Wayne is in jail now on a gun charge because it's all tied up with his "hood" image.)
- andyjdavis 16y ago
  Also the inmates have basically an unlimited amount of time to think things over. They have all the time in the world to go back over past events and plan for the future interactions. The guard may not think twice about a particular conversation while the inmate may spend the next 24 hours going over it in their head and figuring out an angle. If they're not switched on and maybe a bit paranoid the guard may not realize that what they think is a conversation is actually a science experiment with them as the subject. Working with people who can spend every waking moment figuring out how to get into your head could be frightening.
- roel_v 16y ago
  Who is YM/CMB? Google shows a bunch of rappers, but is there actually one that calls himself "YM/CMB"? I guess that guy drank too much of the Web 2.0 naming coolaid ("Street 2.0"?)
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Young Money / Cash Money Business. Also c.f. Young Money Entertainment.
  - CWuestefeld 16y ago
    that guy drank too much of the Web 2.0 naming coolaid That would be "Horsedick.MPEG" from the movie Miss March. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_March
sliverstorm 16y ago
1: who says every inmate is doing it wholly consciously, with each step planned? 2: there are many guards and many inmates. Some inmates succeed with some guards, not all inmates with all guards.
yardie 16y ago
Prisons are full of psychopaths and sociopaths. You've probably worked amongst some of them in your life. Think of the guy that everyone hates but has managed to get himself locked into the heartbeat of the company. Sociopaths aren't out to get power through material wealth, but by exploiting character flaws. They'll find someone easily influenced, kiss ass until they have solid relationship and then exploit the shit out of it.
Vivtek 16y ago
Some of them are really, really smart people who grew up in situations that didn't allow them to get anywhere except by this kind of manipulation. And they have nothing else to do, every day, for years. I knew a guy once who had worked as a guard at a maximum-security prison in Kentucky. Their prisoners were this kind of guy - often brilliant. He said you literally couldn't leave a candy wrapper in their cell because they would make a knife of it (not joking, this was his very example, and he knew a guy who'd been cut with just such a knife) and try to escape. Even knowing they couldn't escape, they just had nothing better to do with their time. And they've got a lot of time.
- eru 16y ago
  By the way, do you know what prisoners are allowed to do with their time? I guess they are technically allowed to have books. How about computers, or even internet access? Historical anecdote: In the 19th century there was this German inventor and entrepeneur, named Ernst Werner von Siemens. He took part in a duel and was sentenced to a (mild form of) prison. He used the time there to make several inventions. And at the end he even asked for extending his sentence.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    I think it entirely depends on the prison.

petewarden 16y ago

If you're interested in the strange working relationship between guards and prisoners, I highly recommend Newjack: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newjack:_Guarding_Sing_Sing?wasRedirected=true http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newjack:_Guarding_Sing_Sing?w... The author is a journalist who was refused access to Sing Sing, so he joined the prison service as a guard there for a year.

jrockway 16y ago
I just finished reading that book, and it doesn't sound like the relationship that this blog post implies at all. He said he sympathized with the inmates a bit (and let them break minor rules), but he didn't bring any contraband in. (And interestingly, the book makes prison sound a lot nicer than I would have imagined. Less rules than the residential high school I went to, anyway...)
- petewarden 16y ago
  No, but he does discover that the guard/prisoner relationship is a lot more complex than he expected, relying for the most part on subtle persuasion and negotiation by the guard not raw coercion. He also show how much time prisoners devote to getting inside their guards' heads, since they often were manipulative and amoral personalities on the outside and now they have nothing else to vent those skills on.

nandemo 16y ago

This brings up the notion of sex in the presence of the female, while making the inmate himself appear non-threatening. The way to nip this in the bud is for the female guard to say that any sexual talk in her presence is neither appreciated nor appropriate. This sounds hilarious to me, in a "you can't fight in here! This is the War Room" sense. Are female guards common in prisons for males in the US?

pyre 16y ago
Well he did say that the book is from 1981...

teaspoon 16y ago

Holding up the D.E.N.N.I.S. system as an example of successful manipulation kind of torpedoes the credibility of your interpretation. Did you finish the episode?

zackattack 16y ago
It's never ceteris paribus. Are you familiar with polynomials? Ax^i + By^j + Cz^k? It's the same concept. :)

malbs 16y ago

The article was interesting to me because I have a friend who is a Prison Guard. He regularly tells stories about working in the system, about the prisoners, and about his work mates. With the prison system here in Australia, he says there is a genuine drive to get rid of hard-ass prison officers, and replace them with what he calls "yes men", who will back down from any potential engagement with prisoners, because it is essentially bad publicity for the prison system, and the media loves to jump on prison violence (especially caused by the guards). In this the guards are already coming from a weak position because the inmates can actually use the media attention to their advantage Anyways I'm getting off track, but my mate refers to himself as part of the old school system, where if you care to break the rules at all, it will be met with swift and violent retribution at the guards hands in the form of some sort of midnight visit. This is all being phased out though, as I already mentioned in the previous paragraph. Also, the inmates definitely know the system, and know how to get around the justice system - There was a recent riot in the local prison here, where the prisoners attacked two of the guards, but even though the prisoners knew there was CC TV on them, they simply covered their faces with towels as to avoid identification. Now the guards could identify them based on mannerisms on camera (the way they walked/moved, used weapons), however it didn't go to trial because the the video was the only evidence, and a prosecution would never get a jury to convict because mannerisms would never be enough to identify the perpetrators. Kind of a long winded way of saying the prisoners know what they can get away with, very well. I asked him what would have happened if the prisoners had actually killed one of the guards, and he said well they would have got away with murder. Scary place, he certainly earns his 90k per year. Sorry for the long winded response!

louislouis 16y ago
Very insightful comment. No need to apologize.
bjelkeman-again 16y ago
I wonder if one could use gait recognition software in a situation like this, to identify a person? When do we want software "proof" to be used in court? Do we already?

barrybe 16y ago

Here are some of the ways that a blogger will try to manipulate you into purchasing a book. First, the post presents itself as a harmless and useful source of information. There's nothing to lose, and you might be informed or at least entertained if you keep reading. The story spans several different aspects of human behavior. At some point, it might touch on something that you've personally experienced, which makes you more interested in the post. As the post goes on, it begins to accumulate reasons why the topic is important, and how it can potentially affect you and your life. Before you know it, you begin to feel like you can't afford to ignore the provided advice. Then finally, the trap is set! An affiliate link is posted, and all you have to do to feel better about the situation is whip out your credit card. Here's how you can avoid buying a book that you don't really want: 1) Recognize the signs 2) Use a web site that allows comments to publicly mock the blog post. Not only does this give you the enjoyment of being a jackass, you can transform your reticence into a noble cause. I hope this advice has been helpful!

zackattack 16y ago
I'm humbled that my post was powerful enough to elicit this kind of personal expression. Or are you usually this good?
- Alex3917 16y ago
  I guess no one ever told you that the worst thing you can possibly do to an American is to trick them into reading a book.
  - theorique 16y ago
    LOL! Reminds me of this track / video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8 (Read A Book by Bomani Armah)
  - eru 16y ago
    What makes you think barrybe is an American?

javanix 16y ago

I'm not convinced that most of the inmates have quite that level of sophistication, but anyone who's dealt with a particularly effective bully will recognize the kinds of psychopathic behavior depicted.

puredemo 16y ago
Yeah, this sounds more like AIG or Goldman Sachs.
- zackattack 16y ago
  How so?
  - puredemo 16y ago
    Well, they gradually gained the public trust in the financial sector. Then they proceeded to threaten the country with financial and economic ruin if massive amounts of publics funds weren't transferred to them.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > Then they proceeded to threaten the country with financial and economic ruin if massive amounts of publics funds weren't transferred to them. Did they? From the outside, it looked more like "those institutions are too vital, so we're going to pump money in and tell them how to do things" from govt officials. Which reminds me - the US financial institution bailout is close to break even with the exception of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (which the Dems insist on pouring more money into - they voted down liquidation early this week). GM and Chrysler aren't even close.
      - eru 16y ago
        > Which reminds me - the US financial institution bailout is close to break even [...] At least if you are only looking at the costs that have been accounted for.

yason 16y ago

Two things come to my mind: - I would be a terrible correctional officer; and - it is certainly a whole another world where people learn to apply their obviously available intelligence and emotions first in a false way and secondly, then being able to pull the plug and turn against the "duck" with these extortions. Anecdotally, if I was imprisoned and I started to befriend an officer, my loyalty to him would grow as well as his loyalty to me. I wouldn't be able to pull such a stunt that would potentially get him fired and mess up his life if he didn't bring me pot.

eru 16y ago
Perhaps that's why you didn't land in prison in the first place? Or it works the other way round, and your views change when you are in prison?
FluidDjango 16y ago
On the other hand, the proportion of sociopathic personalities in a prison is probably much higher than in an HN thread... And sociopaths are less likely to be burdened with empathy/loyalty/etc.

mhb 16y ago

Handmade prison escape tools and weapons: http://trinixy.com/28-handmade-prison-escape-tools-and-weapons-24-photos.html http://trinixy.com/28-handmade-prison-escape-tools-and-weapo...

sethg 16y ago

The next step is testing: violating minor rules, asking for things that are not supposed to be given. They test for the resilience of the guards and are also playing to what in psychology is called the “foot in the door phenomenon”: people who do a small favor for you are more likely in the future to do larger favors for you. I am reminded of the teachers’ maxim “don’t smile before Christmas”, i.e., establish yourself as a firm disciplinarian at the beginning of the school year, and you can be more flexible once the students recognize that you aren’t a pushover.

mcantor 16y ago

I feel like posts such as this one say some pretty scary things about intimacy in general, even honest intimacy.

leif 16y ago

> the con will first touch the duck accidentally ... wow