8 ms·

We changed our apply page to no longer allow students from windows

2 points by andrewfromx 10y ago

robschia 10y ago
Pretty hardcore.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  it's just not worth it. if they are serious about learning to code, step 1 is linux or Mac not windows, am I rite?
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    > am I rite Not really.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      btw we also don't teach node.js - we think server side js is silly. We teach javascript but as a client side only language.
  - mortenjust 10y ago
    I don't see it. What part of Windows makes it hard to learn the languages you offer? MySQL, JS, PHP
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      well I'm on a Mac. I have no idea how to get past weird window specific errors. And our code when it runs in production will run in linux. so... if all serious developers in the industry use Mac/linux, why even mess with windows? I don't see the + I only see -
  - dmarlow 10y ago
    "learning to code" I didn't know specific OSes were required to learn to code. "am I rite?" No. Clearly you need a source and I have a feeling you're not going to find one. Your childish tone may prove to gain you favor with other myopic people, but you sound like the people I wouldn't want as a teammate, don't worry, you'll get some interested people, but they'll be just like you, but maybe you won't notice.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      dude, wtf? I've worked all over the industry and hating on windows is just normal. Like everyone uses Macs and a few geeks use linux but no serious programer uses windows. this is just fact. Our biggest competitor https://www.turing.io https://www.turing.io sells students new macs.
      - house9-2 10y ago
        > Like everyone uses Macs and a few geeks use linux but no serious programer uses windows. This statement is false, you might need to take a look outside of your bubble - it is a big wide world out there. > dude, wtf? I've worked all over the industry and hating on windows is just normal. And this makes it ok how? I haven't 'worked all over the industry' but I have been building web applications for over 15 years using various technologies and on different OS. They all have their warts and they all shine in different ways.
        andrewfromx 10y ago
        anyone who gets VC funding from a major Silicon Valley fund, uses linux and mysql, and no ms sql server or IIS or any of that _legacy_ stuff. I want to teach people coding so they are ready to go for work major Silicon Valley companies, not legacy it departments. it makes it ok because this is what students needs to be taught to the right jobs. I cannot tell a student it's a good idea to learn C# or MS SQL Server when I fundamentally don't believe it is.
        everyone 10y ago
mneil 10y ago
It's your site, do what you want. Wamp. I don't dual-boot or open a VM to browse HN.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  it's just the /apply url that does the windows check. the rest of the site can be viewed from any os.
  - detaro 10y ago
    You should probably change that to the entire site, so people know about this idiocy immediately and don't waste time with you.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      I think you are missing the point. 100s of people are applying. When they get into the school 10% have a pc not a Mac. It's not worth that 10%. I'm going to teach the other 90% that have Macs already. That's plenty of students. Why would it be wasting time with me? I'm a great teacher and coder.
lazylizard 10y ago
they think people browse to their /apply page from a webserver?
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  huh? we think people goto our /apply page all the time from browsers. those browsers send a field called user-agent that contains information about what operating system that browser is running on.
  - lazylizard 10y ago
    not that. say my webservers run centos or rh. my desktops are mostly windows. i remote to my webservers, dev or staging or production, to do stuff. and actually they don't have desktops installed. none of my machines can visit that /apply page then. if someone runs windows on their desktop and uses vagrant to launch their dev/test instance it'd probably be headless too. windows desktops have ms office and can play direct x games. unless u want to force people to choose between a linux desktop and not applying. thats ok too.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      think of it like a test. Say you are on windows and goto higher.team/apply and get the windows message and really want to apply to the school. How could they quickly get around the user-agent check? https://www.virtualbox.org https://www.virtualbox.org and https://elementary.io https://elementary.io would work right?
andrewclunn 10y ago
Developer, and long time BSD user who has dabbled in linux. I keep trying to get away from Windows, but it keeps being something I have to use for work. So many businesses use C# and Microsoft SQL Server for their back ends, and IE 11 support is the bane of my existence for web development. Maybe it's different in southern California, but everywhere else Windows is still king.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  anyone who gets VC funding from a major Silicon Valley fund, uses linux and mysql, and no ms sql server or IIS or any of that _legacy_ stuff. I want to teach people coding so they are ready to go for work major Silicon Valley companies, not legacy it departments.
  - olgeni 10y ago
    With all that funding they might as well afford a proper PostgreSQL license.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12166585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12166585
jareds 10y ago
As a blind person I'm glad I have no need for your course since I already know how to program. Linux accessibility is a giant pain for most blind people. While the Mac is accessible your looking at a $1000 entry price compared to $500 for a Windows laptop with a free screen reader. Never assume you know best, people like me have good reasons for using Windows.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  "Never assume you know best" well I'm sorry but I'm not trying to make a school that caters to every single person's personal issues. I'm trying to create a leading silicon valley / silicon beach code school where the best of the best go. Being blind has lots of limitations I'm afraid. I would tell my own son this if he was blind too. And I do know the best about _this_ issue. I've taught 100's of people coding and trying to do it on a Mac is much more efficient. I have not had a single blind student yet.
  - jareds 10y ago
    Please list the limitations you know so much about? Your sample size is far to small to make any generalizations about what blind people can and can not do just because you have not taught any blind students. Also read up on WSL, it's pretty good.
tedyoung 10y ago
As an educator, your lack of empathy for your (potential) students would greatly concern me regarding your ability to teach people from where they are, instead of what's easy for you. But that's fine, I'd be happy to teach folks who simply want to learn, regardless of what their hardware situation is.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  I aded this to page: BTW This is not saying we will not teach you. We still want you to apply. And installing linux on your pc is a great first assignment. Seriously, our teaching style is we through you into a working web company as an intern. If you were to show up for your first day with a windows laptop, your very first assignment would be put linux on it. You will learn a lot doing this. But this thread on hackernews makes it seem like I hate windows people and don't want to teach them. This is not true. Just complete assignment 1 and you can apply.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    This is the height of arrogance. I cannot express how offensive it seems.
jerryszczerry 10y ago
Nice. I'd change it, though, so it would disallow both Windows and OSX.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  I do believe this is the first positive comments on this thread! 3 points here we come.
DanBC 10y ago
Replying to an old thread of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13188673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13188673 That item handles mains voltage. Do not modify it. If you really need to modify it find a competent person to cut off the 3 prong mains plug, shorten the cable, and fit a new plug. The new plug will be ugly. A competent person is anyone who repairs electrical items - washing machine repair people for example. But, mostly, don't modify it.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  I agree I know very little about electricity and current, voltage, amps, all that stuff. I don't really grok it. But code I get. Why are you replying to an old thread of mine here?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    I didn't want you to kill yourself or others by electrocution or house fire because you fiddled around with a cable designed and built to meet some important safety specifications.
    - andrewfromx 10y ago
      thank you! it was a close one.
gregjor 10y ago
Do you require students to wear a hoodie too? Since back-end web applications run on a server, not on laptops, it makes more sense to work in that environment from the beginning. A web-based IDE like Cloud 9 or CodeAnywhere with the LAMP environment (or whatever) already set up would allow your students to get right to coding, without having to jump through your phony hoops. You are imposing your idea of how "real developers" work based on a small sample of hot VC-funded companies in the valley. I know lots of serious developers and none of them run real applications on their laptop. Few of them use desktop Linux. Web servers don't run GUI-based operating systems. Forcing everyone to try to get your idea of a programming environment running on their own laptop is just wasting time. It's the same as being forced to install Flash to use a bank or airline web site. Dismiss "legacy IT departments" all you want but there are 1,000 times more jobs with real companies making money than there are at VC-funded startups in SV. Maybe you don't think those jobs are sexy, but you're teaching people habits and career strategies, not just programming. I think you are already behind the curve with your Mac/Linux laptop requirement. Google engineers use Chromebooks (so do I). Chromebooks and iPads are the default in many schools. Those devices can be great for learning programming and actually writing code. Regardless of technical arguments about operating systems or stacks or what venture capital firms fund (you really think they base those decisions on what laptops the developers use?) your "amirite" dismissive tone is off-putting. Good luck with that.
- andrewfromx 10y ago
  gregjor, sir, I ask you, if you had 100's of people applying to your school and you could filter it by a simple regex to remove all the non-serious students from the list so you could pay attention to the serious students wouldn't you use that filter? I'm not saying I won't help people on windows machines. I'm saying their 1st assignment in our school would be to install linux on that pc.
  - lazylizard 10y ago
    and that linux is headless.
    - 10y ago

2 points by andrewfromx 10y ago

robschia 10y ago

Pretty hardcore.

andrewfromx 10y ago
it's just not worth it. if they are serious about learning to code, step 1 is linux or Mac not windows, am I rite?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  > am I rite Not really.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    btw we also don't teach node.js - we think server side js is silly. We teach javascript but as a client side only language.
- mortenjust 10y ago
  I don't see it. What part of Windows makes it hard to learn the languages you offer? MySQL, JS, PHP
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    well I'm on a Mac. I have no idea how to get past weird window specific errors. And our code when it runs in production will run in linux. so... if all serious developers in the industry use Mac/linux, why even mess with windows? I don't see the + I only see -
- dmarlow 10y ago
  "learning to code" I didn't know specific OSes were required to learn to code. "am I rite?" No. Clearly you need a source and I have a feeling you're not going to find one. Your childish tone may prove to gain you favor with other myopic people, but you sound like the people I wouldn't want as a teammate, don't worry, you'll get some interested people, but they'll be just like you, but maybe you won't notice.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    dude, wtf? I've worked all over the industry and hating on windows is just normal. Like everyone uses Macs and a few geeks use linux but no serious programer uses windows. this is just fact. Our biggest competitor https://www.turing.io https://www.turing.io sells students new macs.
    - house9-2 10y ago
      > Like everyone uses Macs and a few geeks use linux but no serious programer uses windows. This statement is false, you might need to take a look outside of your bubble - it is a big wide world out there. > dude, wtf? I've worked all over the industry and hating on windows is just normal. And this makes it ok how? I haven't 'worked all over the industry' but I have been building web applications for over 15 years using various technologies and on different OS. They all have their warts and they all shine in different ways.
      - andrewfromx 10y ago
        anyone who gets VC funding from a major Silicon Valley fund, uses linux and mysql, and no ms sql server or IIS or any of that _legacy_ stuff. I want to teach people coding so they are ready to go for work major Silicon Valley companies, not legacy it departments. it makes it ok because this is what students needs to be taught to the right jobs. I cannot tell a student it's a good idea to learn C# or MS SQL Server when I fundamentally don't believe it is.
        everyone 10y ago

mneil 10y ago

It's your site, do what you want. Wamp. I don't dual-boot or open a VM to browse HN.

andrewfromx 10y ago
it's just the /apply url that does the windows check. the rest of the site can be viewed from any os.
- detaro 10y ago
  You should probably change that to the entire site, so people know about this idiocy immediately and don't waste time with you.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    I think you are missing the point. 100s of people are applying. When they get into the school 10% have a pc not a Mac. It's not worth that 10%. I'm going to teach the other 90% that have Macs already. That's plenty of students. Why would it be wasting time with me? I'm a great teacher and coder.

lazylizard 10y ago

they think people browse to their /apply page from a webserver?

andrewfromx 10y ago
huh? we think people goto our /apply page all the time from browsers. those browsers send a field called user-agent that contains information about what operating system that browser is running on.
- lazylizard 10y ago
  not that. say my webservers run centos or rh. my desktops are mostly windows. i remote to my webservers, dev or staging or production, to do stuff. and actually they don't have desktops installed. none of my machines can visit that /apply page then. if someone runs windows on their desktop and uses vagrant to launch their dev/test instance it'd probably be headless too. windows desktops have ms office and can play direct x games. unless u want to force people to choose between a linux desktop and not applying. thats ok too.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    think of it like a test. Say you are on windows and goto higher.team/apply and get the windows message and really want to apply to the school. How could they quickly get around the user-agent check? https://www.virtualbox.org https://www.virtualbox.org and https://elementary.io https://elementary.io would work right?

andrewclunn 10y ago

Developer, and long time BSD user who has dabbled in linux. I keep trying to get away from Windows, but it keeps being something I have to use for work. So many businesses use C# and Microsoft SQL Server for their back ends, and IE 11 support is the bane of my existence for web development. Maybe it's different in southern California, but everywhere else Windows is still king.

andrewfromx 10y ago
anyone who gets VC funding from a major Silicon Valley fund, uses linux and mysql, and no ms sql server or IIS or any of that _legacy_ stuff. I want to teach people coding so they are ready to go for work major Silicon Valley companies, not legacy it departments.
- olgeni 10y ago
  With all that funding they might as well afford a proper PostgreSQL license.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12166585 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12166585

jareds 10y ago

As a blind person I'm glad I have no need for your course since I already know how to program. Linux accessibility is a giant pain for most blind people. While the Mac is accessible your looking at a $1000 entry price compared to $500 for a Windows laptop with a free screen reader. Never assume you know best, people like me have good reasons for using Windows.

andrewfromx 10y ago
"Never assume you know best" well I'm sorry but I'm not trying to make a school that caters to every single person's personal issues. I'm trying to create a leading silicon valley / silicon beach code school where the best of the best go. Being blind has lots of limitations I'm afraid. I would tell my own son this if he was blind too. And I do know the best about _this_ issue. I've taught 100's of people coding and trying to do it on a Mac is much more efficient. I have not had a single blind student yet.
- jareds 10y ago
  Please list the limitations you know so much about? Your sample size is far to small to make any generalizations about what blind people can and can not do just because you have not taught any blind students. Also read up on WSL, it's pretty good.

tedyoung 10y ago

As an educator, your lack of empathy for your (potential) students would greatly concern me regarding your ability to teach people from where they are, instead of what's easy for you. But that's fine, I'd be happy to teach folks who simply want to learn, regardless of what their hardware situation is.

andrewfromx 10y ago
I aded this to page: BTW This is not saying we will not teach you. We still want you to apply. And installing linux on your pc is a great first assignment. Seriously, our teaching style is we through you into a working web company as an intern. If you were to show up for your first day with a windows laptop, your very first assignment would be put linux on it. You will learn a lot doing this. But this thread on hackernews makes it seem like I hate windows people and don't want to teach them. This is not true. Just complete assignment 1 and you can apply.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  This is the height of arrogance. I cannot express how offensive it seems.

jerryszczerry 10y ago

Nice. I'd change it, though, so it would disallow both Windows and OSX.

andrewfromx 10y ago
I do believe this is the first positive comments on this thread! 3 points here we come.

DanBC 10y ago

Replying to an old thread of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13188673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13188673 That item handles mains voltage. Do not modify it. If you really need to modify it find a competent person to cut off the 3 prong mains plug, shorten the cable, and fit a new plug. The new plug will be ugly. A competent person is anyone who repairs electrical items - washing machine repair people for example. But, mostly, don't modify it.

andrewfromx 10y ago
I agree I know very little about electricity and current, voltage, amps, all that stuff. I don't really grok it. But code I get. Why are you replying to an old thread of mine here?
- DanBC 10y ago
  I didn't want you to kill yourself or others by electrocution or house fire because you fiddled around with a cable designed and built to meet some important safety specifications.
  - andrewfromx 10y ago
    thank you! it was a close one.

gregjor 10y ago

Do you require students to wear a hoodie too? Since back-end web applications run on a server, not on laptops, it makes more sense to work in that environment from the beginning. A web-based IDE like Cloud 9 or CodeAnywhere with the LAMP environment (or whatever) already set up would allow your students to get right to coding, without having to jump through your phony hoops. You are imposing your idea of how "real developers" work based on a small sample of hot VC-funded companies in the valley. I know lots of serious developers and none of them run real applications on their laptop. Few of them use desktop Linux. Web servers don't run GUI-based operating systems. Forcing everyone to try to get your idea of a programming environment running on their own laptop is just wasting time. It's the same as being forced to install Flash to use a bank or airline web site. Dismiss "legacy IT departments" all you want but there are 1,000 times more jobs with real companies making money than there are at VC-funded startups in SV. Maybe you don't think those jobs are sexy, but you're teaching people habits and career strategies, not just programming. I think you are already behind the curve with your Mac/Linux laptop requirement. Google engineers use Chromebooks (so do I). Chromebooks and iPads are the default in many schools. Those devices can be great for learning programming and actually writing code. Regardless of technical arguments about operating systems or stacks or what venture capital firms fund (you really think they base those decisions on what laptops the developers use?) your "amirite" dismissive tone is off-putting. Good luck with that.

andrewfromx 10y ago
gregjor, sir, I ask you, if you had 100's of people applying to your school and you could filter it by a simple regex to remove all the non-serious students from the list so you could pay attention to the serious students wouldn't you use that filter? I'm not saying I won't help people on windows machines. I'm saying their 1st assignment in our school would be to install linux on that pc.
- lazylizard 10y ago
  and that linux is headless.
  - 10y ago