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>I can understand this point, but how is it damaging me? Were you pronouncing it as /d/ before or were you pronuncing it as an unaspirated /t/? The problem is

>I can understand this point, but how is it damaging me? Were you pronouncing it as /d/ before or were you pronuncing it as an unaspirated /t/? The problem is that with pinyin, people assume it's a /d/ sound, and their language learning books never tell them it's not a /d/. Conversely, when Chinese people then go to learn other languages, they see a d and say something like unaspirated /t/, and then they wonder why they can never sound like the natives when they try to say d. If you only relied on pinyin, you'd just always sound wrong and no one would tell you, and you'd never figure it out that it was the faulty phonetic system that hypnotized you into saying something almost the complete wrong way. Then you get stereotypes like "all Chinese people sound like impression", when they don't have to, but they have these misleading learning tools that are making them sound that way. edit as a reply (thread reply limit reached): Here's a concrete example of a failure of pinyin: Consider that 也 is /yě/, and 得 is /de/. Except actually, the two e's are not the same sound. In IPA, the vowels are e and ɤ, respectively. Zhuyin also correctly makes the vowel distinction with ㄜ and ㄝ. Pinyin as written does not show a difference between these two distinct sounds, whereas zhuyin does. Also, take a look at the example for /zhun/ that I give above for pinyin neglecting to show the addition of an entire syllable of a schwa.

pimlottc 10y ago
Certainly it's important to realize that the english text is a merely an approximation of the actual pronunciation, but this isn't really that different than any other language that uses the western alphabet. The same thing applies in French, Spanish, German, Italian, etc. The student will quickly learn that even though the letters look the same, each language has its own idiosyncratic way of vocalizing them. Any textbook or teacher that does not emphasize this is not a very good one.
jason_slack 10y ago
You are making a lot of assumptions here about how people learn. When I started learning, pinyin foundation was the absolute first thing. Before anything else. Yes, I was told /d/ is an unaspirated /t/, but I also read it in my text book. Also, you say people will never tell me I am wrong. I disagree here. People correct my tones all the time. They know I am learning. Even people I try and talk to at a supermarket are pleasantly surprised I talked to them in their language and they offer a correction. Also, you keep saying zhuyin is better, but you haven't given a single example as to why. You just keep saying pinyin isn't as good enough and gives false hope. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you made an incomplete argument saying the method I am learning is damaging to my learning and all you state is not knowing the proper pronunciation of characters by simply looking at them. You learn a language, with its "rules".
paradite 10y ago
> Consider that 也 is /yě/, and 得 is /de/. There is no distinctions between the "e" because the latter uses a different rule in pinyin system from the first one: http://www.fantizi5.com/yinjie/renduyinjie/ http://www.fantizi5.com/yinjie/renduyinjie/ In English you also have similar situations where the same composition gives you different pronunciations: baked, raped vs gated, naked.
- jason_slack 10y ago
  This goes along with what I have been saying. The OP's argument would suggest that anyone just reading outright and not taking the time to learn would pronounce the /e/ all the same. However, learning the "rules" is required to pronounce it properly. This isn't a bad or damaging thing.
  - gurkendoktor 10y ago
    Would you say that Pinyin run through ROT-13 is just as easy as Hanyu Pinyin, because it's still 26 characters and you just have to memorise the rules? I found the ambiguities of Hanyu Pinyin really annoying when learning Chinese. Probably still more time-efficient than learning Bopomofo, but Pinyin is definitely a "least worst" choice for me.
jason_slack 10y ago
"Consider that 也 is /yě/, and 得 is /de/. Except actually, the two e's are not the same sound." I know this. And I see where you are coming from. But again, you are to focused on someone just reading text outright, without learning the "rules" of the language. This is where the problem is. Not taking the time to understand the language you are learning. Your example is just another "rule" that is found in any textbook. I have probably 30 Chinese languages books on my shelf and I can find this and all the "rules" about pronouncing a /d/ as an unaspirated /t/ in most all of them. So, it seems that learning pinyin is just fine if a person "learns" properly and just doesn't gloss over the foundation. I appreciate your explanations, BTW.
natch 10y ago
You haven't learned pinyin properly. Anyone who learns the utmost basics of pinyin and the language will not stumble on any of this stuff. You sound like you are relying on the phonetics too much. You just need to get the phonetic rules, and then whatever system you are using, you will know the sound in your head and match it to what is on the page. ye and de are super easy to distinguish as two things that have two different rules (read about initials and finals, if you need more info, here for example: http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/pinyin-rules.php http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/pinyin-rules.php)
dilemma 10y ago
Consider 'e' in 'he' and 'they'. None of the things you say are a problem or make sense for someone who speaks Chinese. I think you're just an autist on speed.
- sctb 10y ago
  Please don't insult other users on HN like this.
  - imjustsaying 10y ago
    To be fair, I enjoyed the feedback. I see how this could often snowball, though. Perhaps my "make a less-than-exhaustively-researched statement then wait and see if someone corrects you" method of testing validity of statements isn't very harmonious. I think this was my bad, here.
imjustsaying 10y ago
>Also, take a look at the example for /zhun/ that I give above for pinyin neglecting to show the addition of an entire syllable of a schwa. Can't edit anymore, but I just wanted to update this to reflect that there isn't actually a second syllable here.
geokon 10y ago
I gotta agree with what you're generally saying. I'm not as familiar with phonetics, but I've found i learning Chinese that one of the most useful things to keep in mind when reading pinyin is to not take the letters literally and to focus on how native people are actually saying things. Like in the examples you give, the pinyin can lure you into bad habits

pimlottc 10y ago

Certainly it's important to realize that the english text is a merely an approximation of the actual pronunciation, but this isn't really that different than any other language that uses the western alphabet. The same thing applies in French, Spanish, German, Italian, etc. The student will quickly learn that even though the letters look the same, each language has its own idiosyncratic way of vocalizing them. Any textbook or teacher that does not emphasize this is not a very good one.

jason_slack 10y ago

You are making a lot of assumptions here about how people learn. When I started learning, pinyin foundation was the absolute first thing. Before anything else. Yes, I was told /d/ is an unaspirated /t/, but I also read it in my text book. Also, you say people will never tell me I am wrong. I disagree here. People correct my tones all the time. They know I am learning. Even people I try and talk to at a supermarket are pleasantly surprised I talked to them in their language and they offer a correction. Also, you keep saying zhuyin is better, but you haven't given a single example as to why. You just keep saying pinyin isn't as good enough and gives false hope. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you made an incomplete argument saying the method I am learning is damaging to my learning and all you state is not knowing the proper pronunciation of characters by simply looking at them. You learn a language, with its "rules".

paradite 10y ago

> Consider that 也 is /yě/, and 得 is /de/. There is no distinctions between the "e" because the latter uses a different rule in pinyin system from the first one: http://www.fantizi5.com/yinjie/renduyinjie/ http://www.fantizi5.com/yinjie/renduyinjie/ In English you also have similar situations where the same composition gives you different pronunciations: baked, raped vs gated, naked.

jason_slack 10y ago
This goes along with what I have been saying. The OP's argument would suggest that anyone just reading outright and not taking the time to learn would pronounce the /e/ all the same. However, learning the "rules" is required to pronounce it properly. This isn't a bad or damaging thing.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  Would you say that Pinyin run through ROT-13 is just as easy as Hanyu Pinyin, because it's still 26 characters and you just have to memorise the rules? I found the ambiguities of Hanyu Pinyin really annoying when learning Chinese. Probably still more time-efficient than learning Bopomofo, but Pinyin is definitely a "least worst" choice for me.

jason_slack 10y ago

"Consider that 也 is /yě/, and 得 is /de/. Except actually, the two e's are not the same sound." I know this. And I see where you are coming from. But again, you are to focused on someone just reading text outright, without learning the "rules" of the language. This is where the problem is. Not taking the time to understand the language you are learning. Your example is just another "rule" that is found in any textbook. I have probably 30 Chinese languages books on my shelf and I can find this and all the "rules" about pronouncing a /d/ as an unaspirated /t/ in most all of them. So, it seems that learning pinyin is just fine if a person "learns" properly and just doesn't gloss over the foundation. I appreciate your explanations, BTW.

natch 10y ago

You haven't learned pinyin properly. Anyone who learns the utmost basics of pinyin and the language will not stumble on any of this stuff. You sound like you are relying on the phonetics too much. You just need to get the phonetic rules, and then whatever system you are using, you will know the sound in your head and match it to what is on the page. ye and de are super easy to distinguish as two things that have two different rules (read about initials and finals, if you need more info, here for example: http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/pinyin-rules.php http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/pinyin-rules.php)

dilemma 10y ago

Consider 'e' in 'he' and 'they'. None of the things you say are a problem or make sense for someone who speaks Chinese. I think you're just an autist on speed.

sctb 10y ago
Please don't insult other users on HN like this.
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  To be fair, I enjoyed the feedback. I see how this could often snowball, though. Perhaps my "make a less-than-exhaustively-researched statement then wait and see if someone corrects you" method of testing validity of statements isn't very harmonious. I think this was my bad, here.

imjustsaying 10y ago

>Also, take a look at the example for /zhun/ that I give above for pinyin neglecting to show the addition of an entire syllable of a schwa. Can't edit anymore, but I just wanted to update this to reflect that there isn't actually a second syllable here.

geokon 10y ago

I gotta agree with what you're generally saying. I'm not as familiar with phonetics, but I've found i learning Chinese that one of the most useful things to keep in mind when reading pinyin is to not take the letters literally and to focus on how native people are actually saying things. Like in the examples you give, the pinyin can lure you into bad habits