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I'd be careful asserting "what he stands for". At the moment he is at the mercy of the Russian intelligence services and the Russian government, in a nation far

I'd be careful asserting "what he stands for". At the moment he is at the mercy of the Russian intelligence services and the Russian government, in a nation far more "flexible" about human rights and democracy. Let's just say: if they had a request for some particular information, or a message being delivered to his followers, he isn't exactly in a position to refuse. On the other hand, we know that Russia is recruiting intelligence assets like him all over the western world. It is entirely possible Snowden was recruited by Russian operatives before his defection to Russia, maybe even before stealing the files.

pvg 10y ago
He's a valuable Russian intelligence asset who suddenly runs off to Hong Kong to talk to journalists? That doesn't really make much sense.
- joeclark77 10y ago
  My impression is that he went to the ChiComs first, they decided his stolen files were too hot for them to handle, so he went to Russia as a backup plan.
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Nothing is too hot to handle for a big nation state like China. I don't know exactly why China didn't detain him. But there are a whole lot of possibilities from being to slow off the mark, avoiding ruffled feathers with the US, up to an agreement with Russia. Maybe Snowden really hadn't anything with him in Hong Kong which he hasn't already shared with Journalists and the Russians.
    - cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
      I've assumed that both China and Russia have access to his complete unfiltered information in exchange for his safety. Hard for Snowden to say no to those demands at that point. "Give us everything you have right now and we won't send you back to the US." China does the same for any equipment or planes they seize from the US- inspect the hell out of it and then return it.
    - joeclark77 10y ago
      "avoiding ruffled feathers with the US" is what I meant by China deciding his data was too hot to handle. I agree with the other possibilities, too.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  It makes a whole lot of sense if you consider that the goal of Snowden's defection isn't just to bring secret information to Russia, but rather to undermine Trust in western democracy - a well documented goal of Russia's intelligence services. You still don't get the point that Snowden may be flat out lying over certain things, like his reasons to go to Hongkong or to "choose" Russian exile.
  - pvg 10y ago
    It still doesn't make sense. Why blow a super-valuable asset to 'undermine trust in western democracy'? I mean, you have a mole in the NSA and your next step is... TV interviews in Moscow? To make him a Russian agent you have to explain or make up a whole pile of things for which there is no evidence at all, so far.
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      Nope. He may not have been willing or capable to be a long-term asset. It was possible and probable he would have been revealed. He may have had scruples as to how far to betray his country. He may not even have had access to an ongoing stream of documents to justify the risk. What do I have to make up? He went to Russia and helped Putin's cause. That's all I know. I do believe this to be at least as plausible as the apparently more popular alternative that Snowden is a saint, didn't lie about anything and only wanted to make the world a better and more democratic place by getting help from China, Putin, Castro and Venezuela.
      - pvg 10y ago
        He may not have been willing or capable to be a long-term asset. It was possible and probable he would have been revealed. He may have had scruples as to how far to betray his country. He may not even have had access to an ongoing stream of documents to justify the risk. You just made all of these up to explain away his behaviour which is generally not that consistent with "Russian spy". For the simpler version - "he probably wasn't a Russian spy" you don't have to propose any of these (really strange) things. Can you think of any spy who behaved like that? Did Kim Philby give interviews on his way to Moscow? You don't have to believe Snowden is a saint or hasn't lied about or obfuscated his motives to think there is little evidence he's a Russian agent because there really isn't any, so far.
sneak 10y ago
It is my understanding that he was rid of all of the documents before he went to Russia. How could he serve them even if he wanted to? I think you are somewhat out of touch with his own statements and circumstances.
- pekko 10y ago
  He says that he got rid of the documents, there's no way to verify it. I think there are no reasons to take his statements at the face value, given the players involved in the overall situation -- the world's top intelligence agencies.
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Exactly. But look at what responses I get when I just point out the possibility Snowden may be lying. I do recognize the value of the revelations. I just don't accept Snowden's motives at face value. I'm not saying there is evidence for colusion with Russia prior to the affair, but it's very possible and explains quite a few things.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      >Exactly. But look at what responses I get when I just point out the possibility Snowden may be lying. Given the number of times the intelligence agencies have verifiably lied about this affair alone (many) and the number of times Snowden has verifiably lied (zero), why would you default to believing the known liars? >and explains quite a few things There's very little that is unexplained about Snowden.
      - bayesian_horse 10y ago
        So somebody who hasn't been caught lying yet can't possibly lie? I'm not really believing much of what the NSA or CIA said about him. I don't need to in order to entertain the possibility that Snowden was recruited by a covert operative -before- the affair. It explains how a lowly sysadmin comes up with the courage and the plan to flee half way around the world. I also don't believe the intended travel itinerary. Wouldn't it be easier to make a vacation in Venezuela, publish his material from a nice cushy hotel and THEN try to get asylum? How did he know China wouldn't detain/deport him? Same with Russia? There is no proof for either version. But enough suspicion to justify holding off on making Snowden a saint of democracy.

pvg 10y ago

He's a valuable Russian intelligence asset who suddenly runs off to Hong Kong to talk to journalists? That doesn't really make much sense.

joeclark77 10y ago
My impression is that he went to the ChiComs first, they decided his stolen files were too hot for them to handle, so he went to Russia as a backup plan.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  Nothing is too hot to handle for a big nation state like China. I don't know exactly why China didn't detain him. But there are a whole lot of possibilities from being to slow off the mark, avoiding ruffled feathers with the US, up to an agreement with Russia. Maybe Snowden really hadn't anything with him in Hong Kong which he hasn't already shared with Journalists and the Russians.
  - cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
    I've assumed that both China and Russia have access to his complete unfiltered information in exchange for his safety. Hard for Snowden to say no to those demands at that point. "Give us everything you have right now and we won't send you back to the US." China does the same for any equipment or planes they seize from the US- inspect the hell out of it and then return it.
  - joeclark77 10y ago
    "avoiding ruffled feathers with the US" is what I meant by China deciding his data was too hot to handle. I agree with the other possibilities, too.
bayesian_horse 10y ago
It makes a whole lot of sense if you consider that the goal of Snowden's defection isn't just to bring secret information to Russia, but rather to undermine Trust in western democracy - a well documented goal of Russia's intelligence services. You still don't get the point that Snowden may be flat out lying over certain things, like his reasons to go to Hongkong or to "choose" Russian exile.
- pvg 10y ago
  It still doesn't make sense. Why blow a super-valuable asset to 'undermine trust in western democracy'? I mean, you have a mole in the NSA and your next step is... TV interviews in Moscow? To make him a Russian agent you have to explain or make up a whole pile of things for which there is no evidence at all, so far.
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    Nope. He may not have been willing or capable to be a long-term asset. It was possible and probable he would have been revealed. He may have had scruples as to how far to betray his country. He may not even have had access to an ongoing stream of documents to justify the risk. What do I have to make up? He went to Russia and helped Putin's cause. That's all I know. I do believe this to be at least as plausible as the apparently more popular alternative that Snowden is a saint, didn't lie about anything and only wanted to make the world a better and more democratic place by getting help from China, Putin, Castro and Venezuela.
    - pvg 10y ago
      He may not have been willing or capable to be a long-term asset. It was possible and probable he would have been revealed. He may have had scruples as to how far to betray his country. He may not even have had access to an ongoing stream of documents to justify the risk. You just made all of these up to explain away his behaviour which is generally not that consistent with "Russian spy". For the simpler version - "he probably wasn't a Russian spy" you don't have to propose any of these (really strange) things. Can you think of any spy who behaved like that? Did Kim Philby give interviews on his way to Moscow? You don't have to believe Snowden is a saint or hasn't lied about or obfuscated his motives to think there is little evidence he's a Russian agent because there really isn't any, so far.

sneak 10y ago

It is my understanding that he was rid of all of the documents before he went to Russia. How could he serve them even if he wanted to? I think you are somewhat out of touch with his own statements and circumstances.

pekko 10y ago
He says that he got rid of the documents, there's no way to verify it. I think there are no reasons to take his statements at the face value, given the players involved in the overall situation -- the world's top intelligence agencies.
- bayesian_horse 10y ago
  Exactly. But look at what responses I get when I just point out the possibility Snowden may be lying. I do recognize the value of the revelations. I just don't accept Snowden's motives at face value. I'm not saying there is evidence for colusion with Russia prior to the affair, but it's very possible and explains quite a few things.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    >Exactly. But look at what responses I get when I just point out the possibility Snowden may be lying. Given the number of times the intelligence agencies have verifiably lied about this affair alone (many) and the number of times Snowden has verifiably lied (zero), why would you default to believing the known liars? >and explains quite a few things There's very little that is unexplained about Snowden.
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      So somebody who hasn't been caught lying yet can't possibly lie? I'm not really believing much of what the NSA or CIA said about him. I don't need to in order to entertain the possibility that Snowden was recruited by a covert operative -before- the affair. It explains how a lowly sysadmin comes up with the courage and the plan to flee half way around the world. I also don't believe the intended travel itinerary. Wouldn't it be easier to make a vacation in Venezuela, publish his material from a nice cushy hotel and THEN try to get asylum? How did he know China wouldn't detain/deport him? Same with Russia? There is no proof for either version. But enough suspicion to justify holding off on making Snowden a saint of democracy.