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Great essay. I disagree that you can or should only protest those judgements about you specifically, but I do agree with the entire second half of your essay.

by vlad 20y ago

Great essay. I disagree that you can or should only protest those judgements about you specifically, but I do agree with the entire second half of your essay. I agree with the idea behind the essay, that "If it doesn't matter to someone else whether they choose you, then the other party has the leverage. You want to put yourself in positions where you have the leverage." For example, if you apply to a college, and thousands of applicants are just like you, then you don't have leverage. Your examples just ignore the fact that people get rejected from about 4 colleges a year, while they have a chance to correct their tests and homeworks about 1,000 times a semester. This means that the numbers simply don't match up. If you appealed 1,000 college decisions, you would have a great chance to get into a lot of them. If you appealed 1,000 questions on a homework to one busy and egotistical professor, they would likely start avoiding you after the 10th question. Therefore, people SHOULD appeal everything they want to, whether the judgement is specifically about them or not. I saw that this was written originally as a post to a question about YC decisions. As far as advice about YC, I think the best explanation of why some people were rejected is that there is a hidden bias (though very well earned) to hang around with people you think you'll find interesting or ideas you think you'd love or have a lot to contribute to over the summer.

Goladus 20y ago
I disagree you should appeal everything you feel is unjust. Sometimes it's appropriate, but it is difficult not to react with emotion when there is a sense of injustice and not all of those feelings lead you in the best direction. If your partner breaks up with you, for example, appealing to 1000 different committees is only going to make things 1000 times worse for you. You've got to decide whether the reward is worth the effort. Sometimes the reward doesn't make sense if you had to fight to get it. (eg, if you're not picked for a team then bitch your way in, there might be resentment that brings the whole team down such that you'd have been better off not bothering)
- vlad 20y ago
  I did NOT say you should try to appeal everything you feel is unjust. I said let the person decide. I'm saying there should not be a blanket statement about NEVER appealing certain decisions. People should appeal for anything they WANT to (obviously after using common sense, not everything) especially if it's NOT personal, like college admissions. I also did NOT say you should appeal to 1,000 different places. It was an example to point out that Paul was comparing apples to oranges. And, by appeal, I don't think either I or Paul meant just words, but whatever it would be (retaking the physical, sending videos to a coach of your performance, sending a college a picture of a national award you just received in March after you were just rejected, etc.)
  - Goladus 20y ago
    I'm sorry if I misunderstood the post you originally made.
shiro 20y ago
PG is just pointing out a general fact, which is well known to those who are constantly being judged. It doesn't change whether PG wrote this as a response to the post, or as a general advice. If you doubt that, ask anybody in the profession where being judged is in its nature (I sometimes audition as an actor so I think I know that business a bit.) Your mentioning about hidden bias is somewhat true, except that it's not really hidden, but just implicit---in most of the judgement there are always some implicit criteria the choosers have, and good players know that. Assuming otherwise is too naive. About appealing: As far as you're not in the few of the obvious top group or in the obvious fall-behind groups in terms of the primary factors, any arbitrary secondary factors can put you in either side. Those factors are so random and it's waste of time to appeal---sure, you may have some chance of the judgements reversed, but it is much wiser to spend that time to make yourself excel in the primary factors, so that next time such randomness will affect less to the outcome, because if you like to live a life taking challenges, you will be constantly judged, and you won't have time to deal with those randomness.
- vlad 20y ago
  Great post. The point of my post is that I don't think there are two specific categories of judgement, where in one you appeal, and in the other, you don't. Reversing a rejection to 1 or 2 or 3 extra colleges, since you already paid the application fee, could be worth it. That's just one example. I'm not disagreeing with Paul' overall message, I just think the examples are very bad. I think sending a letter of appeal could be worth it in a lot of cases if the trade-off or risk-reward is worth it.
  - shiro 20y ago
    I see. I understood the original article's two categories maps to the case whether those "random factors" exists or not; I'm not familiar with school admission process in US, so I don't know if that particular example is good or bad.

by vlad 20y ago

Goladus 20y ago

I disagree you should appeal everything you feel is unjust. Sometimes it's appropriate, but it is difficult not to react with emotion when there is a sense of injustice and not all of those feelings lead you in the best direction. If your partner breaks up with you, for example, appealing to 1000 different committees is only going to make things 1000 times worse for you. You've got to decide whether the reward is worth the effort. Sometimes the reward doesn't make sense if you had to fight to get it. (eg, if you're not picked for a team then bitch your way in, there might be resentment that brings the whole team down such that you'd have been better off not bothering)

vlad 20y ago
I did NOT say you should try to appeal everything you feel is unjust. I said let the person decide. I'm saying there should not be a blanket statement about NEVER appealing certain decisions. People should appeal for anything they WANT to (obviously after using common sense, not everything) especially if it's NOT personal, like college admissions. I also did NOT say you should appeal to 1,000 different places. It was an example to point out that Paul was comparing apples to oranges. And, by appeal, I don't think either I or Paul meant just words, but whatever it would be (retaking the physical, sending videos to a coach of your performance, sending a college a picture of a national award you just received in March after you were just rejected, etc.)
- Goladus 20y ago
  I'm sorry if I misunderstood the post you originally made.

shiro 20y ago

PG is just pointing out a general fact, which is well known to those who are constantly being judged. It doesn't change whether PG wrote this as a response to the post, or as a general advice. If you doubt that, ask anybody in the profession where being judged is in its nature (I sometimes audition as an actor so I think I know that business a bit.) Your mentioning about hidden bias is somewhat true, except that it's not really hidden, but just implicit---in most of the judgement there are always some implicit criteria the choosers have, and good players know that. Assuming otherwise is too naive. About appealing: As far as you're not in the few of the obvious top group or in the obvious fall-behind groups in terms of the primary factors, any arbitrary secondary factors can put you in either side. Those factors are so random and it's waste of time to appeal---sure, you may have some chance of the judgements reversed, but it is much wiser to spend that time to make yourself excel in the primary factors, so that next time such randomness will affect less to the outcome, because if you like to live a life taking challenges, you will be constantly judged, and you won't have time to deal with those randomness.

vlad 20y ago
Great post. The point of my post is that I don't think there are two specific categories of judgement, where in one you appeal, and in the other, you don't. Reversing a rejection to 1 or 2 or 3 extra colleges, since you already paid the application fee, could be worth it. That's just one example. I'm not disagreeing with Paul' overall message, I just think the examples are very bad. I think sending a letter of appeal could be worth it in a lot of cases if the trade-off or risk-reward is worth it.
- shiro 20y ago
  I see. I understood the original article's two categories maps to the case whether those "random factors" exists or not; I'm not familiar with school admission process in US, so I don't know if that particular example is good or bad.