4 ms·

100k is still too low, but it is better than nothing. A family of four in San Francisco with an income of 100k a year qualifies for housing assistance. Yes, I

by geebee 10y ago

100k is still too low, but it is better than nothing. A family of four in San Francisco with an income of 100k a year qualifies for housing assistance. Yes, I know, most families are two income now, but it doesn't speak well to this severe "shortage" that a critical worker with ultra valuable skills in short supply still needs direct welfare from the government to get by. I'd say 200k for a minimum salary. I know that seems high to people, but remember, by and large we rely on labor markets to set salary levels. If you can't hire the experienced lawyer or financial analyst you want for 100k a year to work in a big, loud open office, we generally say that's the market's answer. Increase the offer and job conditions or accept that people have found higher value work to do. Giving employers the right to control who is and is not allowed to come into the united states is a really, really big deal. It's a complete end-run around normal labor markets. If we're going to allow this, it needs to be a slam-dunk decision - yes, clearly this is a very essential and very well paid worker. To me, 100k doesn't come close, especially in the expensive areas around silicon valley (where many of the companies claiming a shortage and lobbying for visas are located).

tdb7893 10y ago
Isn't 200k like the top 5% of household incomes in the US? I think 100k would put you in the top third of household income and that would just be the minimum.
- sidlls 10y ago
  Yes, but consider what the H1-B is meant for: an extremely highly skilled worker for which there is no local supply. It doesn't seem outlandish to me to put some metrics on that other than employers' (biased, suspect) word.
  - tdb7893 10y ago
    Yeah but 200k is top 2% of individual income. 100k is already in about the top 10% of individual incomes. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a metric but to say that 200k should be the minimum because 100k just isn't enough strikes me a weird
    - sidlls 10y ago
      Why? The more skill required, the smaller the candidate pool, and the higher the wage. For these truly exceptional talents it does not seem at all weird to me that truly exceptional compensation is warranted. But that is just another way of stating the real problem here: the H1-B program isn't used to hire exceptional talent that cannot be found locally. It is currently used to hire rather typical talent at an exceptional discount.
      - tdb7893 10y ago
        Yeah large software companies can pay but I'm worried that 200k will put it out of reach for many fields and many organizations no matter how exceptional the applicants are.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > an extremely highly skilled worker for which there is no local supply People keep saying this. Where is that documented?
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Information%20Obligations%20for%20H1B%20Employers%20Sponsors/ref/1172/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Information%20Obligations%20... """ Recruitment efforts: The H1B dependent employer must also attest to making good faith attempts to recruit US workers and offering prevailing wages for this position. When hiring an H1B worker, it is important for employers to recognize the attendant responsibilities that they must shoulder. Although the requirements are not excessively burdensome, the employer is required to maintain some paperwork to demonstrate its compliance with the law. A clear understanding and fulfillment of these requirements will minimize possible civil penalties and ensure that the employer will be permitted to petition for future H1B workers """ http://www.h1base.com/content/h1bvisarequirements http://www.h1base.com/content/h1bvisarequirements """ The requirements to qualify for an H1B visa are: You must have ONE of the following 1) A Bachelor's degree or Masters Degree (or the foreign equivalent degree from your Country), OR 2) 12 years work experience, OR 3) A mix of further education + work experience The general H1B visa qualification rule is: - for every 1 year of studies at University / College = 3 points - for every 1 year of work experience = 1 point 12 points in 'total' are required to qualify for the H1B visa program """
      - serge2k 10y ago
        So "highly skilled" just means a bachelors degree in a specific set of fields. People seem to be implying that it requires skills well beyond that.
        sidlls 10y ago
        It's not just the degree or experience requirement, it's the exclusivity factor. These aren't "typical" BS/BA holders. That's just a bare minimum and only one component of the requirement. Other pieces include a shortage (or even non-existence) of labor available for the job. This necessarily implies the target candidate has skills that aren't in supply domestically, and therefore is (more) "highly skilled" even than a Bachelor holder is.
bcaulfield 10y ago
Very rarely does something someone posts on a discussion board make me stop and reconsider things. You just did. +1 to you, +1 to Hacker News.
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
  I'm curious what this changed your opinion from?
muninn_ 10y ago
And that should be cash compensation. No stocks. No options. They can give stocks and options if they want to pay more, but I don't want to see companies saying the need somebody and then giving them $100k in stock options or something and paying them $50k or something. It's bad enough that we have a job problem. The last thing I want is the few good jobs left where people can actually negotiate great wages be left to companies to circumvent the market using labor laws.
cardine 10y ago
A very easy fix for this is to tie compensation to cost of living. If the cost of living is dramatically more expensive in San Francisco than it is in Little Rock Arkansas, the income requirements should reflect that.
- prostoalex 10y ago
  This is the exact loophole they're trying to close. The law already requires the employer pay the prevailing wage. The arbitrage from outsourcing companies (Cognizant, Tata, Infosys) included head-quartering in cheap areas of Georgia and New Jersey, filing DoL paperwork with wages prevailing in that HQ area, and then sending their employees on "business trips" to the actual client place (CA, NY) while not adjusting the wages.
464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
100% agreed. I think there is this mythology that you can bring in amazing foreign workers and pay them (virtually) nothing. If you hire a 50k/year developer there isn't really reason to believe that they are any better if they are from Bangalore or if they are from Peoria. The current situation is incredibly exploitative of these foreign workers too. They are effectively tied to their original employer to remain in the country. Honestly, 200k still seems on the low side to me. H1B should be a "we can't find anyone" not "we can't find anyone willing to work cheaply enough" visa.

by geebee 10y ago

tdb7893 10y ago

Isn't 200k like the top 5% of household incomes in the US? I think 100k would put you in the top third of household income and that would just be the minimum.

sidlls 10y ago
Yes, but consider what the H1-B is meant for: an extremely highly skilled worker for which there is no local supply. It doesn't seem outlandish to me to put some metrics on that other than employers' (biased, suspect) word.
- tdb7893 10y ago
  Yeah but 200k is top 2% of individual income. 100k is already in about the top 10% of individual incomes. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a metric but to say that 200k should be the minimum because 100k just isn't enough strikes me a weird
  - sidlls 10y ago
    Why? The more skill required, the smaller the candidate pool, and the higher the wage. For these truly exceptional talents it does not seem at all weird to me that truly exceptional compensation is warranted. But that is just another way of stating the real problem here: the H1-B program isn't used to hire exceptional talent that cannot be found locally. It is currently used to hire rather typical talent at an exceptional discount.
    - tdb7893 10y ago
      Yeah large software companies can pay but I'm worried that 200k will put it out of reach for many fields and many organizations no matter how exceptional the applicants are.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > an extremely highly skilled worker for which there is no local supply People keep saying this. Where is that documented?
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Information%20Obligations%20for%20H1B%20Employers%20Sponsors/ref/1172/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/Information%20Obligations%20... """ Recruitment efforts: The H1B dependent employer must also attest to making good faith attempts to recruit US workers and offering prevailing wages for this position. When hiring an H1B worker, it is important for employers to recognize the attendant responsibilities that they must shoulder. Although the requirements are not excessively burdensome, the employer is required to maintain some paperwork to demonstrate its compliance with the law. A clear understanding and fulfillment of these requirements will minimize possible civil penalties and ensure that the employer will be permitted to petition for future H1B workers """ http://www.h1base.com/content/h1bvisarequirements http://www.h1base.com/content/h1bvisarequirements """ The requirements to qualify for an H1B visa are: You must have ONE of the following 1) A Bachelor's degree or Masters Degree (or the foreign equivalent degree from your Country), OR 2) 12 years work experience, OR 3) A mix of further education + work experience The general H1B visa qualification rule is: - for every 1 year of studies at University / College = 3 points - for every 1 year of work experience = 1 point 12 points in 'total' are required to qualify for the H1B visa program """
    - serge2k 10y ago
      So "highly skilled" just means a bachelors degree in a specific set of fields. People seem to be implying that it requires skills well beyond that.
      - sidlls 10y ago
        It's not just the degree or experience requirement, it's the exclusivity factor. These aren't "typical" BS/BA holders. That's just a bare minimum and only one component of the requirement. Other pieces include a shortage (or even non-existence) of labor available for the job. This necessarily implies the target candidate has skills that aren't in supply domestically, and therefore is (more) "highly skilled" even than a Bachelor holder is.

bcaulfield 10y ago

Very rarely does something someone posts on a discussion board make me stop and reconsider things. You just did. +1 to you, +1 to Hacker News.

464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
I'm curious what this changed your opinion from?

muninn_ 10y ago

And that should be cash compensation. No stocks. No options. They can give stocks and options if they want to pay more, but I don't want to see companies saying the need somebody and then giving them $100k in stock options or something and paying them $50k or something. It's bad enough that we have a job problem. The last thing I want is the few good jobs left where people can actually negotiate great wages be left to companies to circumvent the market using labor laws.

cardine 10y ago

A very easy fix for this is to tie compensation to cost of living. If the cost of living is dramatically more expensive in San Francisco than it is in Little Rock Arkansas, the income requirements should reflect that.

prostoalex 10y ago
This is the exact loophole they're trying to close. The law already requires the employer pay the prevailing wage. The arbitrage from outsourcing companies (Cognizant, Tata, Infosys) included head-quartering in cheap areas of Georgia and New Jersey, filing DoL paperwork with wages prevailing in that HQ area, and then sending their employees on "business trips" to the actual client place (CA, NY) while not adjusting the wages.

464192002d7fe1c 10y ago

100% agreed. I think there is this mythology that you can bring in amazing foreign workers and pay them (virtually) nothing. If you hire a 50k/year developer there isn't really reason to believe that they are any better if they are from Bangalore or if they are from Peoria. The current situation is incredibly exploitative of these foreign workers too. They are effectively tied to their original employer to remain in the country. Honestly, 200k still seems on the low side to me. H1B should be a "we can't find anyone" not "we can't find anyone willing to work cheaply enough" visa.