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I'm sure the tax credits play into the decision to build the station, but its position was intended to allow people to swap batteries for the trip from SoCal to

by bb611 10y ago

I'm sure the tax credits play into the decision to build the station, but its position was intended to allow people to swap batteries for the trip from SoCal to SF, which otherwise requires a fair amount of time at a charger. For that it's pretty perfect, it's just that Tesla users apparently don't find it worth using. I do think that's pretty clear and useful data, and it's clearly informed their current efforts (i.e. no new battery stations).

sammydavis 10y ago
One big reason is people want their original battery back after swapping. We have all been trained that we are taking care of our batteries on phones or AA at home. The tesla should take care of batteries and they are basically swappable without issue. But this isn't how anyone thinks of their battery.
jessriedel 10y ago
Did you read the articles? Even if it's in the world's most convenient location, this can be outweighed by high prices, slow (non-automated) swapping, and large inconveniences from forcing people to schedule ahead. > They must make an appointment in advance to get their pack swapped, and they will pay a fee said to be roughly equivalent to the cost of a full tank of gasoline--perhaps $50? > And the swapping process isn't fully automated, unlike the one supposedly presented by Musk 21 months ago. > The company never released details on how that system worked, or answered questions on how the battery's liquid-cooling system could be disconnected and reconnected, and any lost coolant replaced, within a 90-second swap. > But the slow pace of the single swap station differs markedly from the fast-growing Supercharger network, where any Tesla owner can drive up, charge for 20 to 40 minutes, and drive away with a battery recharged to about 80 percent of capacity. So maybe you save 20 minutes on net, but it costs $50 and you have to sign up a week in advance. Why would anyone use it?
- bb611 10y ago
  I did read your articles, and didn't find them particularly compelling. Technology failures happen all the time, the fact that Tesla wasn't successful at rolling out battery swap but was successful with superchargers seems pretty unplanned, given the engineering time spent on the system and the constraints this all put on the chassis. Tesla hasn't released anything on their own, but the battery swap patent is now public: https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic-revealed-patent-drawings/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic... They essentially designed and built an industrial robot, R&D costs for which easily range into 8 digits. This looks like a failed good faith effort to me. They thought they had something (as did much of the rest of the car industry), turned out they were wrong and they're cutting their losses.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    Neither I nor the article is arguing that Tesla's entire battery swap program was just a scheme to get tax incentives. It likely was good faith, and there may have been good reasons for Tesla to end the program. The point is that that particular swap station was not in good faith, and therefore it's (predictable) non-use gives you no additional data about the public's demand for swapping. (You may, of course, infer something from the fact that Tesla doesn't think it's viable.) It has to do with the way the incentive structure is set up: there is tax credit of order $1,000 per vehicle if the vehicle has battery swap capabilities, which necessitates "available" infrastructure. If Tesla invested huge in battery swap tech and then decided it wasn't going to work, they still have massive incentives to open up a single, highly inconvenient swap station in order to recoup part of their investment through the tax incentive.
    - greglindahl 10y ago
      That particular swap station was a great one if you expected lines at the superchargers between LA and SF, which is one of the most-used routes and has a charger that's halfway. As a Tesla driver that travels that route, I'd happily pay $50 or $80 to know that I would have more reliable timing on the day before Thanksgiving. However, I usually return up 101 to do some wine tasting.

by bb611 10y ago

sammydavis 10y ago

One big reason is people want their original battery back after swapping. We have all been trained that we are taking care of our batteries on phones or AA at home. The tesla should take care of batteries and they are basically swappable without issue. But this isn't how anyone thinks of their battery.

jessriedel 10y ago

Did you read the articles? Even if it's in the world's most convenient location, this can be outweighed by high prices, slow (non-automated) swapping, and large inconveniences from forcing people to schedule ahead. > They must make an appointment in advance to get their pack swapped, and they will pay a fee said to be roughly equivalent to the cost of a full tank of gasoline--perhaps $50? > And the swapping process isn't fully automated, unlike the one supposedly presented by Musk 21 months ago. > The company never released details on how that system worked, or answered questions on how the battery's liquid-cooling system could be disconnected and reconnected, and any lost coolant replaced, within a 90-second swap. > But the slow pace of the single swap station differs markedly from the fast-growing Supercharger network, where any Tesla owner can drive up, charge for 20 to 40 minutes, and drive away with a battery recharged to about 80 percent of capacity. So maybe you save 20 minutes on net, but it costs $50 and you have to sign up a week in advance. Why would anyone use it?

bb611 10y ago
I did read your articles, and didn't find them particularly compelling. Technology failures happen all the time, the fact that Tesla wasn't successful at rolling out battery swap but was successful with superchargers seems pretty unplanned, given the engineering time spent on the system and the constraints this all put on the chassis. Tesla hasn't released anything on their own, but the battery swap patent is now public: https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic-revealed-patent-drawings/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic... They essentially designed and built an industrial robot, R&D costs for which easily range into 8 digits. This looks like a failed good faith effort to me. They thought they had something (as did much of the rest of the car industry), turned out they were wrong and they're cutting their losses.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  Neither I nor the article is arguing that Tesla's entire battery swap program was just a scheme to get tax incentives. It likely was good faith, and there may have been good reasons for Tesla to end the program. The point is that that particular swap station was not in good faith, and therefore it's (predictable) non-use gives you no additional data about the public's demand for swapping. (You may, of course, infer something from the fact that Tesla doesn't think it's viable.) It has to do with the way the incentive structure is set up: there is tax credit of order $1,000 per vehicle if the vehicle has battery swap capabilities, which necessitates "available" infrastructure. If Tesla invested huge in battery swap tech and then decided it wasn't going to work, they still have massive incentives to open up a single, highly inconvenient swap station in order to recoup part of their investment through the tax incentive.
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    That particular swap station was a great one if you expected lines at the superchargers between LA and SF, which is one of the most-used routes and has a charger that's halfway. As a Tesla driver that travels that route, I'd happily pay $50 or $80 to know that I would have more reliable timing on the day before Thanksgiving. However, I usually return up 101 to do some wine tasting.