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> This environment of abridged civil liberties, police militarization and increased surveillance is what many Americans wanted, post 9/11. No. Nobody wants to

by Steeeve 10y ago

> This environment of abridged civil liberties, police militarization and increased surveillance is what many Americans wanted, post 9/11. No. Nobody wants to live in the iron curtain. This is an absolute and total failure of leadership, from the Bush administration through the Obama administration. 16 years of inexcusable failure. (It probably goes back even further) People with bombs have not created fear, politicians have.

pjc50 10y ago
People wanted "abridged civil liberties, police militarization and increased surveillance" applied to other people. The whole thing relies on "othering". America has long been happy to have a more violent police force and higher rate of imprisonment than other countries so long as that violence is directed against nonwhite people. It seems people imagine that they'll be the priviliged ones behind the iron curtain; the neighbourhood informers. (This is also why e.g. HOAs have such oppressive rules, they're aimed at eradicating "difference" and a form of soft-redlining)
soundwave106 10y ago
Unfortunately, in the USA, if you ask the question directly, you will get a surprising amount of people who support our current government surveillance: 42% in this 2015 Pew poll. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-americans-think-about-nsa-surveillance-national-security-and-privacy/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-america... An interesting add-on to this is to poll about how one feels about Edward Snowden. The result is that the majority view him negatively. (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde... and http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-poll-hero-russia/2016/09/23/id/749866/ http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-po...) So unfortunately there is a pretty significant group of people that are okay with increased surveillance. Note that from what I see, this divide doesn't appear to be traditional US liberal/conservative. In fact, if anything, the divide carries more of a generational rift, where older people are more okay with surveillance than younger people are. (The USA Today poll on Snowden mentions this, and there is also this: http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/few-see-adequate-limits-on-nsa-surveillance-program/#age-and-views-of-civil-liberties-govt-surveillance http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/few-see-adequate-limi...) For those concerned with digital privacy and rights, I guess the question would be how to counter this narrative of fear that from my viewpoint drives these sort of opinions.
- Steeeve 10y ago
  But if you actually clarified and asked "is it OK if the NSA reads your email and monitors your google searches because you ordered pizza from the same place that someone who is facebook friends with a guy who's uncle owns a rental unit that houses a 22 year old who read three Al Jazeera articles about ISIS last week and tweeted 6 times to a guy on a watch list because he works for a website that mirrors wikileaks - which as you know published classified government information?" You would get an entirely different set of answers. Or, if you for example told them that they were currently classified by religion and political leaning, and that they are loosely associated with the bombing of abortion clinics (but don't worry, lot's of people in Indiana are)

by Steeeve 10y ago

pjc50 10y ago

People wanted "abridged civil liberties, police militarization and increased surveillance" applied to other people. The whole thing relies on "othering". America has long been happy to have a more violent police force and higher rate of imprisonment than other countries so long as that violence is directed against nonwhite people. It seems people imagine that they'll be the priviliged ones behind the iron curtain; the neighbourhood informers. (This is also why e.g. HOAs have such oppressive rules, they're aimed at eradicating "difference" and a form of soft-redlining)

soundwave106 10y ago

Unfortunately, in the USA, if you ask the question directly, you will get a surprising amount of people who support our current government surveillance: 42% in this 2015 Pew poll. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-americans-think-about-nsa-surveillance-national-security-and-privacy/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-america... An interesting add-on to this is to poll about how one feels about Edward Snowden. The result is that the majority view him negatively. (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde... and http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-poll-hero-russia/2016/09/23/id/749866/ http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-po...) So unfortunately there is a pretty significant group of people that are okay with increased surveillance. Note that from what I see, this divide doesn't appear to be traditional US liberal/conservative. In fact, if anything, the divide carries more of a generational rift, where older people are more okay with surveillance than younger people are. (The USA Today poll on Snowden mentions this, and there is also this: http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/few-see-adequate-limits-on-nsa-surveillance-program/#age-and-views-of-civil-liberties-govt-surveillance http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/few-see-adequate-limi...) For those concerned with digital privacy and rights, I guess the question would be how to counter this narrative of fear that from my viewpoint drives these sort of opinions.

Steeeve 10y ago
But if you actually clarified and asked "is it OK if the NSA reads your email and monitors your google searches because you ordered pizza from the same place that someone who is facebook friends with a guy who's uncle owns a rental unit that houses a 22 year old who read three Al Jazeera articles about ISIS last week and tweeted 6 times to a guy on a watch list because he works for a website that mirrors wikileaks - which as you know published classified government information?" You would get an entirely different set of answers. Or, if you for example told them that they were currently classified by religion and political leaning, and that they are loosely associated with the bombing of abortion clinics (but don't worry, lot's of people in Indiana are)