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> StumpWM is a tiling, keyboard driven X11 Window Manager written entirely in Common Lisp. Just in time for Fedora making Wayland the new default :) Seriously

> StumpWM is a tiling, keyboard driven X11 Window Manager written entirely in Common Lisp. Just in time for Fedora making Wayland the new default :) Seriously though. Someone please make a good, working Wayland tiling WM. Wayland is just super nice compared to X11 for enough tasks to justify using it.

stutonk 10y ago
You should have a look at Sway. It's a Wayland i3-alike with a few extra features. It even plays nicely with X11 only applications via X-Wayland. http://swaywm.org/ http://swaywm.org/
- josteink 10y ago
  Last time I tried it, I found it somewhat lacking in the copy/paste department. Iirc copying between Wayland and X11/xwayland apps didn't work. Any news on improvements in that area?
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    There's a bounty for that feature: https://github.com/SirCmpwn/sway/issues/986 https://github.com/SirCmpwn/sway/issues/986 Why don't you work on it?
    - hashkb 10y ago
      Is that a real suggestion or meant to be ironic?
      - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
        A real suggestion. Why would it be ironic? It's open source and easy to contribute to.
        josteink 10y ago
        With all due respect: I don't have time. I just asked because this was an issue last time I tried sway, and I was curious about improvements since then. It was not meant to razz on your wm :) As a maintainer and contributor to several projects I already use (and thus see the return on) I already see myself too short on resources to follow up everything I'd like to. Trying to fix shortcomings in projects which (for me) are not yet production ready just doesn't make it onto my TODO list. I hope someone does help you fix this though. Really. No harm meant. Hope it didn't come off that way.
        Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
        I didn't take any offense. I'm just suggesting you try implementing the feature. It isn't going to be done on your schedule unless you do it.
        hackmiester 10y ago
        I like the feeling behind this sentiment, but I figure that poster just wants a computer where they can copy and paste. So: if there isn't a WM for Wayland that allows their workflow, then they will stick with X.
        Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
        That's fine, sticking with X is a totally acceptable option. If they _want_ to move to Wayland, though, and it's missing something they need, then of course they should help work on that thing.
        josteink 10y ago
        Honest (naive?) question: Given that these issues has persisted for so long and that they seem solved in Gnome and KDE... Not accusing you of full NIH, but are there any technical reasons for not just reusing/leveraging kwin or whatever Gnome uses, instead of creating your own compositor library where all these issues has to be solved, yet again?
  - mathw 10y ago
    I've been using Wayland on Fedora 25 GNOME sessions for a few weeks now. I've not noticed any hiccups on copy/paste and I've definitely been doing it across Wayland-native and XWayland applications. But maybe GNOME's compositor is handling that.
    - josteink 10y ago
      Yeah. That's gnome's compositor. Sway uses another one, which was why I asked.
- sevensor 10y ago
  Sway works great as long as you have a system that can handle Wayland. I've been having terrible luck with NVidia hardware lately -- proprietary drivers are known not to support Wayland, and Wayland / Nouveau has been unstable with the hardware I use. But AMD and Intel systems are rock solid, and I've switched over to sway there.
peatmoss 10y ago
> Wayland is just super nice compared to X11 for enough tasks to justify using it. I'd like to hear what makes it better for you in terms of day-to-day experience. I can look at feature lists, but those often don't give a good picture of the reality that people experience. Given your enthusiasm for Wayland, I'd like to hear it!
- josteink 10y ago
  First and foremost it feels better. Wayland is smoother, does not have graphical glitches and everything performs consistently. Take this (slightly contrived) example: In Gnome 3 you can "zoom" out to panarama view all your running applications, while you have a HTML5 video running in your browser and everything just runs flawlessly, with almost no system-load, and no tearing or any nonsense. All this while you zoom in and out on whatever app or desktop or workspace you want to focus on. A less contrived example: Vertically scrolling a document in your browser or whatever should never ever tear. Ever. On X11 it often does. On Wayland it doesn't. My best simple comparison would be iOS vs Android. There's something about that extra little bit of responsiveness on iOS, that jerkyness you immediately notice on Android when you've gotten used to consistently smooth 60fps interfaces... That difference is something you feel. After using Wayland for a while, you'll notice that feeling yourself on your desktop too.
  - jlarocco 10y ago
    Sounds like your graphics card isn't configured correctly, maybe? I use X11 (StumpWM, actually) on three computers with different graphics cards and system configurations, and I don't have jerkyness, tearing while scrolling, or graphical glitches on any of them.
    - josteink 10y ago
      I'm using factory config on well supported Intel GPUs. I can see the difference pretty clearly. Especially when dragging a full-screen window playing youtube or whatever. This works fine with Wayland. With X11 I get tearing. I'm pretty sure this is what everyone else is complaining about too.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ronjouch 10y ago
I want to use Wayland, but it breaks a few tools I use (Autokey [0], marathon [1]) as they depend on X-specific tooling/APIs (for marathon: wmctrl, xdotool). So I'm disabling Wayland for now even though I'd like to use it (for starters, simply to roll with GNOME's boat, since Wayland is the default on Arch). --> Are there Wayland equivalents to wmctrl and xdotool? Any plans for them? If no, does Wayland provide a complete-enough API to write similar tools for Wayland? [0] https://github.com/autokey-py3/autokey https://github.com/autokey-py3/autokey [1] https://github.com/ronjouch/marathon https://github.com/ronjouch/marathon
- erelde 10y ago
  Wayland isn't the default on Arch, it has no default by default.
  - ronjouch 10y ago
    Right, let me reformulate: Wayland is what you get by default on Arch when you go with the gnome/gdm stack. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GDM#Use_Xorg_backend https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GDM#Use_Xorg_backend
jabl 10y ago
> Seriously though. Someone please make a good, working Wayland tiling WM. There's https://github.com/Immington-Industries/way-cooler https://github.com/Immington-Industries/way-cooler It's alpha, but gets extra HN brownie points for being written in Rust.
- timthelion 10y ago
  Do you really need the word `but` in "It's alpha, but"? I thought on HN, being alpha got you extra brownie points.
  - jabl 10y ago
    Fine, lets replace 'but' with 'and', so it gets double HN brownie points. :)
IgorPartola 10y ago
Is Wayland actually that much nicer than X11? Like, I know the architecture and code and nicer, but as the end user, do you actually experience anything different?

stutonk 10y ago

You should have a look at Sway. It's a Wayland i3-alike with a few extra features. It even plays nicely with X11 only applications via X-Wayland. http://swaywm.org/ http://swaywm.org/

josteink 10y ago
Last time I tried it, I found it somewhat lacking in the copy/paste department. Iirc copying between Wayland and X11/xwayland apps didn't work. Any news on improvements in that area?
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  There's a bounty for that feature: https://github.com/SirCmpwn/sway/issues/986 https://github.com/SirCmpwn/sway/issues/986 Why don't you work on it?
  - hashkb 10y ago
    Is that a real suggestion or meant to be ironic?
    - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
      A real suggestion. Why would it be ironic? It's open source and easy to contribute to.
      - josteink 10y ago
        With all due respect: I don't have time. I just asked because this was an issue last time I tried sway, and I was curious about improvements since then. It was not meant to razz on your wm :) As a maintainer and contributor to several projects I already use (and thus see the return on) I already see myself too short on resources to follow up everything I'd like to. Trying to fix shortcomings in projects which (for me) are not yet production ready just doesn't make it onto my TODO list. I hope someone does help you fix this though. Really. No harm meant. Hope it didn't come off that way.
        Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
        I didn't take any offense. I'm just suggesting you try implementing the feature. It isn't going to be done on your schedule unless you do it.
        hackmiester 10y ago
        I like the feeling behind this sentiment, but I figure that poster just wants a computer where they can copy and paste. So: if there isn't a WM for Wayland that allows their workflow, then they will stick with X.
        Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
        That's fine, sticking with X is a totally acceptable option. If they _want_ to move to Wayland, though, and it's missing something they need, then of course they should help work on that thing.
        josteink 10y ago
        Honest (naive?) question: Given that these issues has persisted for so long and that they seem solved in Gnome and KDE... Not accusing you of full NIH, but are there any technical reasons for not just reusing/leveraging kwin or whatever Gnome uses, instead of creating your own compositor library where all these issues has to be solved, yet again?
- mathw 10y ago
  I've been using Wayland on Fedora 25 GNOME sessions for a few weeks now. I've not noticed any hiccups on copy/paste and I've definitely been doing it across Wayland-native and XWayland applications. But maybe GNOME's compositor is handling that.
  - josteink 10y ago
    Yeah. That's gnome's compositor. Sway uses another one, which was why I asked.
sevensor 10y ago
Sway works great as long as you have a system that can handle Wayland. I've been having terrible luck with NVidia hardware lately -- proprietary drivers are known not to support Wayland, and Wayland / Nouveau has been unstable with the hardware I use. But AMD and Intel systems are rock solid, and I've switched over to sway there.

peatmoss 10y ago

> Wayland is just super nice compared to X11 for enough tasks to justify using it. I'd like to hear what makes it better for you in terms of day-to-day experience. I can look at feature lists, but those often don't give a good picture of the reality that people experience. Given your enthusiasm for Wayland, I'd like to hear it!

josteink 10y ago
First and foremost it feels better. Wayland is smoother, does not have graphical glitches and everything performs consistently. Take this (slightly contrived) example: In Gnome 3 you can "zoom" out to panarama view all your running applications, while you have a HTML5 video running in your browser and everything just runs flawlessly, with almost no system-load, and no tearing or any nonsense. All this while you zoom in and out on whatever app or desktop or workspace you want to focus on. A less contrived example: Vertically scrolling a document in your browser or whatever should never ever tear. Ever. On X11 it often does. On Wayland it doesn't. My best simple comparison would be iOS vs Android. There's something about that extra little bit of responsiveness on iOS, that jerkyness you immediately notice on Android when you've gotten used to consistently smooth 60fps interfaces... That difference is something you feel. After using Wayland for a while, you'll notice that feeling yourself on your desktop too.
- jlarocco 10y ago
  Sounds like your graphics card isn't configured correctly, maybe? I use X11 (StumpWM, actually) on three computers with different graphics cards and system configurations, and I don't have jerkyness, tearing while scrolling, or graphical glitches on any of them.
  - josteink 10y ago
    I'm using factory config on well supported Intel GPUs. I can see the difference pretty clearly. Especially when dragging a full-screen window playing youtube or whatever. This works fine with Wayland. With X11 I get tearing. I'm pretty sure this is what everyone else is complaining about too.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ronjouch 10y ago

I want to use Wayland, but it breaks a few tools I use (Autokey [0], marathon [1]) as they depend on X-specific tooling/APIs (for marathon: wmctrl, xdotool). So I'm disabling Wayland for now even though I'd like to use it (for starters, simply to roll with GNOME's boat, since Wayland is the default on Arch). --> Are there Wayland equivalents to wmctrl and xdotool? Any plans for them? If no, does Wayland provide a complete-enough API to write similar tools for Wayland? [0] https://github.com/autokey-py3/autokey https://github.com/autokey-py3/autokey [1] https://github.com/ronjouch/marathon https://github.com/ronjouch/marathon

erelde 10y ago
Wayland isn't the default on Arch, it has no default by default.
- ronjouch 10y ago
  Right, let me reformulate: Wayland is what you get by default on Arch when you go with the gnome/gdm stack. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GDM#Use_Xorg_backend https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GDM#Use_Xorg_backend

jabl 10y ago

> Seriously though. Someone please make a good, working Wayland tiling WM. There's https://github.com/Immington-Industries/way-cooler https://github.com/Immington-Industries/way-cooler It's alpha, but gets extra HN brownie points for being written in Rust.

timthelion 10y ago
Do you really need the word `but` in "It's alpha, but"? I thought on HN, being alpha got you extra brownie points.
- jabl 10y ago
  Fine, lets replace 'but' with 'and', so it gets double HN brownie points. :)

IgorPartola 10y ago

Is Wayland actually that much nicer than X11? Like, I know the architecture and code and nicer, but as the end user, do you actually experience anything different?