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They gave up on the idea of automated battery swap stations, right? It's a shame; I thought they were a great idea, but perhaps there's good reasons why they ca

by jfoster 10y ago

They gave up on the idea of automated battery swap stations, right? It's a shame; I thought they were a great idea, but perhaps there's good reasons why they can't work in reality.

iplaw 10y ago
I don't know if they gave up on it, or if it's simply not ready for primetime and/or the market isn't currently open to the idea of battery sharing. Once marketshare increases, car sharing increases, etc., and people become more accustomed to sharing property (and charging becomes the norm for everyone), the convenience of a 3 minute battery swap will likely win over - and Tesla will be ready to roll out their tech.
bb611 10y ago
They gave up on them because people didn't use the only one they ever ran: http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/ http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/ Realistically, it seems likely that there just wasn't enough demand among existing Tesla owners for that use case. If/When Tesla gets more market share, that could very well change. My understanding is that they are still engineering all their chassis to support the fast swap technology, so they haven't entirely trashed the idea.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  No, that charging station was purposefully built and run to make it extremely inconvenient in order to discourage use. It was just built to obtain a tax incentive. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-ba... http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery-swap-harris-ranch-20150310-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery... There may be good reasons that swappable batteries don't make sense, but interest data gathered from this station doesn't contribute.
  - bb611 10y ago
    I'm sure the tax credits play into the decision to build the station, but its position was intended to allow people to swap batteries for the trip from SoCal to SF, which otherwise requires a fair amount of time at a charger. For that it's pretty perfect, it's just that Tesla users apparently don't find it worth using. I do think that's pretty clear and useful data, and it's clearly informed their current efforts (i.e. no new battery stations).
    - sammydavis 10y ago
      One big reason is people want their original battery back after swapping. We have all been trained that we are taking care of our batteries on phones or AA at home. The tesla should take care of batteries and they are basically swappable without issue. But this isn't how anyone thinks of their battery.
    - jessriedel 10y ago
      Did you read the articles? Even if it's in the world's most convenient location, this can be outweighed by high prices, slow (non-automated) swapping, and large inconveniences from forcing people to schedule ahead. > They must make an appointment in advance to get their pack swapped, and they will pay a fee said to be roughly equivalent to the cost of a full tank of gasoline--perhaps $50? > And the swapping process isn't fully automated, unlike the one supposedly presented by Musk 21 months ago. > The company never released details on how that system worked, or answered questions on how the battery's liquid-cooling system could be disconnected and reconnected, and any lost coolant replaced, within a 90-second swap. > But the slow pace of the single swap station differs markedly from the fast-growing Supercharger network, where any Tesla owner can drive up, charge for 20 to 40 minutes, and drive away with a battery recharged to about 80 percent of capacity. So maybe you save 20 minutes on net, but it costs $50 and you have to sign up a week in advance. Why would anyone use it?
      - bb611 10y ago
        I did read your articles, and didn't find them particularly compelling. Technology failures happen all the time, the fact that Tesla wasn't successful at rolling out battery swap but was successful with superchargers seems pretty unplanned, given the engineering time spent on the system and the constraints this all put on the chassis. Tesla hasn't released anything on their own, but the battery swap patent is now public: https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic-revealed-patent-drawings/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic... They essentially designed and built an industrial robot, R&D costs for which easily range into 8 digits. This looks like a failed good faith effort to me. They thought they had something (as did much of the rest of the car industry), turned out they were wrong and they're cutting their losses.

by jfoster 10y ago

They gave up on the idea of automated battery swap stations, right? It's a shame; I thought they were a great idea, but perhaps there's good reasons why they can't work in reality.

iplaw 10y ago

I don't know if they gave up on it, or if it's simply not ready for primetime and/or the market isn't currently open to the idea of battery sharing. Once marketshare increases, car sharing increases, etc., and people become more accustomed to sharing property (and charging becomes the norm for everyone), the convenience of a 3 minute battery swap will likely win over - and Tesla will be ready to roll out their tech.

bb611 10y ago

They gave up on them because people didn't use the only one they ever ran: http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/ http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/ Realistically, it seems likely that there just wasn't enough demand among existing Tesla owners for that use case. If/When Tesla gets more market share, that could very well change. My understanding is that they are still engineering all their chassis to support the fast swap technology, so they haven't entirely trashed the idea.

jessriedel 10y ago
No, that charging station was purposefully built and run to make it extremely inconvenient in order to discourage use. It was just built to obtain a tax incentive. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-tax-credit-ploy http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2015/0312/Tesla-ba... http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery-swap-harris-ranch-20150310-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-battery... There may be good reasons that swappable batteries don't make sense, but interest data gathered from this station doesn't contribute.
- bb611 10y ago
  I'm sure the tax credits play into the decision to build the station, but its position was intended to allow people to swap batteries for the trip from SoCal to SF, which otherwise requires a fair amount of time at a charger. For that it's pretty perfect, it's just that Tesla users apparently don't find it worth using. I do think that's pretty clear and useful data, and it's clearly informed their current efforts (i.e. no new battery stations).
  - sammydavis 10y ago
    One big reason is people want their original battery back after swapping. We have all been trained that we are taking care of our batteries on phones or AA at home. The tesla should take care of batteries and they are basically swappable without issue. But this isn't how anyone thinks of their battery.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    Did you read the articles? Even if it's in the world's most convenient location, this can be outweighed by high prices, slow (non-automated) swapping, and large inconveniences from forcing people to schedule ahead. > They must make an appointment in advance to get their pack swapped, and they will pay a fee said to be roughly equivalent to the cost of a full tank of gasoline--perhaps $50? > And the swapping process isn't fully automated, unlike the one supposedly presented by Musk 21 months ago. > The company never released details on how that system worked, or answered questions on how the battery's liquid-cooling system could be disconnected and reconnected, and any lost coolant replaced, within a 90-second swap. > But the slow pace of the single swap station differs markedly from the fast-growing Supercharger network, where any Tesla owner can drive up, charge for 20 to 40 minutes, and drive away with a battery recharged to about 80 percent of capacity. So maybe you save 20 minutes on net, but it costs $50 and you have to sign up a week in advance. Why would anyone use it?
    - bb611 10y ago
      I did read your articles, and didn't find them particularly compelling. Technology failures happen all the time, the fact that Tesla wasn't successful at rolling out battery swap but was successful with superchargers seems pretty unplanned, given the engineering time spent on the system and the constraints this all put on the chassis. Tesla hasn't released anything on their own, but the battery swap patent is now public: https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic-revealed-patent-drawings/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/25/teslas-battery-swapping-magic... They essentially designed and built an industrial robot, R&D costs for which easily range into 8 digits. This looks like a failed good faith effort to me. They thought they had something (as did much of the rest of the car industry), turned out they were wrong and they're cutting their losses.