5 ms·

The obvious explanation is that ESR is not actually as masterful a programmer as he thinks he is. (Also of note that it only took two comments before one of hi

The obvious explanation is that ESR is not actually as masterful a programmer as he thinks he is. (Also of note that it only took two comments before one of his readers starts getting mad at the SJWs)

eridius 10y ago
Wow, the comment thread on that page is incredibly toxic. I still don't understand how the commenters there think that a discussion about the technical merits of a programming language has the slightest thing to do with social justice.
- CyberDildonics 10y ago
  I agree with you and also think the comments are toxic, but there is no doubt that Rust decided to mix their language with the idea that the creators need to dictate what is ok to say.
  - eridius 10y ago
    Please elaborate. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the fact that the community forums for Rust discussion that are moderated by the Rust team have codes of conduct. But that's a very good thing! And if you don't like that for whatever reason, then you can go use some discussion forum that's not moderated by the Rust team. Nobody said you're forced to use r/rust, or #rust-lang, or users.rust-lang.org to talk about Rust. But regardless, rules of conduct on public forums are not the same thing as saying that the language itself is in any way associated with social justice.
    - CyberDildonics 10y ago
      But you do agree they dictate what is ok to say on reddit, irc, newsgroups, and github correct? I've seen people scolded for saying 'hey guys'. You can say that is a good thing, but to me it seems like a passive aggressive way to show authority over someone with a virtue contest. The problem is that it turns a meritocracy into something that can be sidestepped and warped by one person claiming to be offended. In practice someone scolds another person for something that they say might offend someone reading. I also haven't seen any sort of evidence that it solves a problem. It seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. I don't think it magically takes care of toxic people.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        We don't ban people for saying "hey guys", we politely tell them that not everyone is a guy and that's pretty much it. I can name plenty of women that I know that are put off from participating in such communities because everyone just assumes that they are male. Individual occurrences are nbd, but in aggregate it gets really annoying. It's a good thing to teach the community to avoid such behavior. The Rust community is one of the nicest online communities I've come across. We get feedback every week from folks happy to participate in the community and contribute to ecosystem/core because it's very nice. I'd say that's plenty evidence it's doing some good.
        CyberDildonics 10y ago
        First, you are equating a blanket 'hey guys' with assuming everyone is a guy which is nonsense. It is a generic greeting, and you decide it is worth flexing authority over another adult, not to mention it is the definition of bike-shedding. Then, you are attributing people's hard work of being helpful with a 'code of conduct' which is unfair to their efforts. The people helping build up rust aren't doing it because someone decided to dictate the greetings they can use.
        Manishearth 10y ago
        The code of conduct doesn't dictate which kind of greetings to use. Nobody has dictated that in the Rust community. Community members just politely ask that you don't use some greetings. Nobody will stop you from continuing to do so. The "hey guys" thing isn't about intent. People are aware that you are not assuming that everyone is a guy. They are asking that you be considerate of people who have to deal with being misgendered all the time and made to feel like they don't belong. There is no authority being flexed. It's usually regular community members asking not to use "hey guys", not moderators. (This is also a super rare occurrence anyway). No, I'm not talking about helpfulness, I'm talking about people being nice. That's exactly what the code of conduct is about, and it seems to achieve that goal pretty well.
        10y ago

eridius 10y ago

Wow, the comment thread on that page is incredibly toxic. I still don't understand how the commenters there think that a discussion about the technical merits of a programming language has the slightest thing to do with social justice.

CyberDildonics 10y ago
I agree with you and also think the comments are toxic, but there is no doubt that Rust decided to mix their language with the idea that the creators need to dictate what is ok to say.
- eridius 10y ago
  Please elaborate. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the fact that the community forums for Rust discussion that are moderated by the Rust team have codes of conduct. But that's a very good thing! And if you don't like that for whatever reason, then you can go use some discussion forum that's not moderated by the Rust team. Nobody said you're forced to use r/rust, or #rust-lang, or users.rust-lang.org to talk about Rust. But regardless, rules of conduct on public forums are not the same thing as saying that the language itself is in any way associated with social justice.
  - CyberDildonics 10y ago
    But you do agree they dictate what is ok to say on reddit, irc, newsgroups, and github correct? I've seen people scolded for saying 'hey guys'. You can say that is a good thing, but to me it seems like a passive aggressive way to show authority over someone with a virtue contest. The problem is that it turns a meritocracy into something that can be sidestepped and warped by one person claiming to be offended. In practice someone scolds another person for something that they say might offend someone reading. I also haven't seen any sort of evidence that it solves a problem. It seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. I don't think it magically takes care of toxic people.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      We don't ban people for saying "hey guys", we politely tell them that not everyone is a guy and that's pretty much it. I can name plenty of women that I know that are put off from participating in such communities because everyone just assumes that they are male. Individual occurrences are nbd, but in aggregate it gets really annoying. It's a good thing to teach the community to avoid such behavior. The Rust community is one of the nicest online communities I've come across. We get feedback every week from folks happy to participate in the community and contribute to ecosystem/core because it's very nice. I'd say that's plenty evidence it's doing some good.
      - CyberDildonics 10y ago
        First, you are equating a blanket 'hey guys' with assuming everyone is a guy which is nonsense. It is a generic greeting, and you decide it is worth flexing authority over another adult, not to mention it is the definition of bike-shedding. Then, you are attributing people's hard work of being helpful with a 'code of conduct' which is unfair to their efforts. The people helping build up rust aren't doing it because someone decided to dictate the greetings they can use.
        Manishearth 10y ago
        The code of conduct doesn't dictate which kind of greetings to use. Nobody has dictated that in the Rust community. Community members just politely ask that you don't use some greetings. Nobody will stop you from continuing to do so. The "hey guys" thing isn't about intent. People are aware that you are not assuming that everyone is a guy. They are asking that you be considerate of people who have to deal with being misgendered all the time and made to feel like they don't belong. There is no authority being flexed. It's usually regular community members asking not to use "hey guys", not moderators. (This is also a super rare occurrence anyway). No, I'm not talking about helpfulness, I'm talking about people being nice. That's exactly what the code of conduct is about, and it seems to achieve that goal pretty well.
        10y ago