7 ms·

It's either ignorant or insulting to name theology in the same breath as alchemy. Theology is still an academic discipline and it doesn't even require a believe

It's either ignorant or insulting to name theology in the same breath as alchemy. Theology is still an academic discipline and it doesn't even require a believe in the supernatural. Unless this is pg's attempt to insert himself into fight about "theology" vs. "religious studies".

olavk 10y ago
Insulting to theology or to alchemy? Alchemy is basically chemistry done with a strong philosophical framework based in the thinking of Paracelsus and Hermes Trismegistos. "Making gold" is just a naive interpretation - it was research concerned about transformation of materials. When the underlying philosophy was abandoned it turned into modern chemistry. (The word "alchemy" has the same root as "chemistry".) You can of course argue the underlying hermetic philosophy was BS - but it was and is no better or worse than theology.
emiliobumachar 10y ago
Pg was probably narrowly talking about Theology as studied by Isaac Newton. I think we can all agree that that was a waste of time. (hindsight is a wonderful thing). Relevant smbc: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2007-12-27 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2007-12-27
tbabb 10y ago
How does theology not involve a belief in the supernatural?
- Diederich 10y ago
  Websters: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
- jat850 10y ago
  Theology is the study of religion or things supernatural, not necessarily tied to a practice in any belief.
  - woodandsteel 10y ago
    No, that is religious studies. Theologians all believe in god or other supernatural entities.
    - jat850 10y ago
      There's debate on the terminology, so I'll credit your first point. But there are atheists who also study theology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos is one such example.
  - tbabb 10y ago
    How can you study the properties of something you don't believe exists? Edit: People are downvoting this, but I genuinely want to know how "theology is the study of supernatural things" and "theology does not rely on belief in the supernatural" are not in complete contradiction.
    - gcb0 10y ago
      if you truly want to understand the mind of who say they have any believes, read le noir et le rouge from stendhal. (might have the color in the wrong order). but that novel pretty much describe all my theological friends. as much as they cry in denial.
    - all_usernames 10y ago
      You've stumbled upon one of the most profound spiritual questions there is.
      - omarchowdhury 10y ago
        How is that a spiritual question? More skeptical.
    - all_usernames 10y ago
      Religious faith from certain perspectives is something like: choosing to believe despite being unable to comprehend with your rational mind. That's the basic core of the inquiry, you start from there and see what happens.
vumgl 10y ago
I find theology and alchemy very similar. Both go to great lengths to prove something that is highly desirable for a human (afterlife and cheap gold) but very unlikely if judged with a clear mind.
- olavk 10y ago
  Alchemy was not about "cheap gold". It was the study of natural elements and transformation and purification of materials. It was a proto-science which later turned into mineralogy, chemistry and medicine. It was part science, part philosophy and part occultism.
- anExcitedBeast 10y ago
  Theology is a broad term and includes the anthropology of religion, history, and philosophy. Many atheists study theology in good faith.
  - quadrangle 10y ago
    That's just like if the NAME "alchemy" had been kept and continued to be used for what we now call "chemistry". Changing the name helped the bullshit die away. If it were all "alchemy" we'd have some advanced chemists but also some people continuing the bullshit and asserting that alchemy is legitimate. It's quite unfortunate to keep the name "theology" for the practice of the anthropology of religion or the history of religion.
quadrangle 10y ago
to use etymology: theology -> theism. It's the study of divine, god, etc. that sort of thing. It's not a normal scientific pursuit. Sure, it's still an academic discipline but not one with any scientific rigor or merit. To assert that its continued existence is what makes it more legitimate than alchemy is some mix of appeal to authority and appeal to popularity.
- jorangreef 10y ago
  The entire Christian theological claim is that Jesus of Nazareth, a "son of man" and the "son of God", walked among us in history, and that these things should and must be tested and verified according to the historical method. See Paul of Tarsus (a former persecutor of some of the first Christians) writing to the Corinthians circa 55 AD: "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead." See Luke the physician writing to Theopilus: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."
- jat850 10y ago
  I'm going to disagree with the "or merit" part. For two reasons - the first being related to theology itself, and the other related to another field which is sometimes classified as being without scientific rigor - philosophy. One merit of theology is the study of religious traditions and whether or not they should continue or be discouraged for various reasons, as an example. Not only scientific pursuits have merit. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to imply with your combination of statements, but it's possible to infer that from your choice of words.
  - quadrangle 10y ago
    Indeed, and thanks for the feedback, esp. in the form of pointing out the interpretation rather than assuming things or putting words in my mouth. I agree with everything you said. I think it would be good to make a distinction between the anthropology of religion and theology (the latter as the study of the "divine" itself, as though there's such a thing to study. Anthropology has merit for sure and even the practice of religion and even belief in things that aren't scientifically supported may have utility or purpose even if their premise is factually baseless (which isn't to say that everything lacking scientific evidence is necessarily false, just well, lacking scientific evidence).
all_usernames 10y ago
Leaving aside alchemy, (which one can assume most people are fairly uninformed about), the whole notion that theology ought to be considered a waste of time in modern day belies a pretty surprising degree of ignorance. The study of God and religious ideas is equivalent to the study of human nature and the significance of existence itself. This is true regardless of which belief system you care to study. Even avoiding deep concepts usually not found in this forum, religion remains at the heart of the greatest human conflicts of the present day, and is critically central to any understanding of the largest cultural forces in the world. Yeah, what a waste of time!
- ajuc 10y ago
  You're describing antrophology, not theology. It's the difference between studying Tolkien universe as art and tracing its influences on culture etc on one hand, and searching for Silmarils on the other.
- olavk 10y ago
  "The study of God" is useless, but the study of people believing in God or gods is useful and quite interesting. These are two different things! The theology of Newton was the former - he literally believed the Bible was the word of God, and by interpreting it he could foresee how the world would end. It was a waste of time because we know now the Bible is actually written by humans.
  - throwaway729 10y ago
    This is my experience, and I think a lot of (devout, conservative) theologians believe this -- although that definitely express it in different language! Look at critiques of seminary programs as being "too academic", for example. The "academic" subjects are basically anything and everything that doesn't over-lap with human psychology or business (apologetics and church history, for example).
  - junko 10y ago
    > "The study of God" is useless With respect, "God" is just a term referring to a being that has supreme powers that humans imagine to be the best of the best - and different people define these powers and other attributes differently. So even if you are an atheist, the study of Gods can still be an interesting reflection of people and society!

olavk 10y ago

Insulting to theology or to alchemy? Alchemy is basically chemistry done with a strong philosophical framework based in the thinking of Paracelsus and Hermes Trismegistos. "Making gold" is just a naive interpretation - it was research concerned about transformation of materials. When the underlying philosophy was abandoned it turned into modern chemistry. (The word "alchemy" has the same root as "chemistry".) You can of course argue the underlying hermetic philosophy was BS - but it was and is no better or worse than theology.

emiliobumachar 10y ago

Pg was probably narrowly talking about Theology as studied by Isaac Newton. I think we can all agree that that was a waste of time. (hindsight is a wonderful thing). Relevant smbc: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2007-12-27 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2007-12-27

tbabb 10y ago

How does theology not involve a belief in the supernatural?

Diederich 10y ago
Websters: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
jat850 10y ago
Theology is the study of religion or things supernatural, not necessarily tied to a practice in any belief.
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  No, that is religious studies. Theologians all believe in god or other supernatural entities.
  - jat850 10y ago
    There's debate on the terminology, so I'll credit your first point. But there are atheists who also study theology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos is one such example.
- tbabb 10y ago
  How can you study the properties of something you don't believe exists? Edit: People are downvoting this, but I genuinely want to know how "theology is the study of supernatural things" and "theology does not rely on belief in the supernatural" are not in complete contradiction.
  - gcb0 10y ago
    if you truly want to understand the mind of who say they have any believes, read le noir et le rouge from stendhal. (might have the color in the wrong order). but that novel pretty much describe all my theological friends. as much as they cry in denial.
  - all_usernames 10y ago
    You've stumbled upon one of the most profound spiritual questions there is.
    - omarchowdhury 10y ago
      How is that a spiritual question? More skeptical.
  - all_usernames 10y ago
    Religious faith from certain perspectives is something like: choosing to believe despite being unable to comprehend with your rational mind. That's the basic core of the inquiry, you start from there and see what happens.

vumgl 10y ago

I find theology and alchemy very similar. Both go to great lengths to prove something that is highly desirable for a human (afterlife and cheap gold) but very unlikely if judged with a clear mind.

olavk 10y ago
Alchemy was not about "cheap gold". It was the study of natural elements and transformation and purification of materials. It was a proto-science which later turned into mineralogy, chemistry and medicine. It was part science, part philosophy and part occultism.
anExcitedBeast 10y ago
Theology is a broad term and includes the anthropology of religion, history, and philosophy. Many atheists study theology in good faith.
- quadrangle 10y ago
  That's just like if the NAME "alchemy" had been kept and continued to be used for what we now call "chemistry". Changing the name helped the bullshit die away. If it were all "alchemy" we'd have some advanced chemists but also some people continuing the bullshit and asserting that alchemy is legitimate. It's quite unfortunate to keep the name "theology" for the practice of the anthropology of religion or the history of religion.

quadrangle 10y ago

to use etymology: theology -> theism. It's the study of divine, god, etc. that sort of thing. It's not a normal scientific pursuit. Sure, it's still an academic discipline but not one with any scientific rigor or merit. To assert that its continued existence is what makes it more legitimate than alchemy is some mix of appeal to authority and appeal to popularity.

jorangreef 10y ago
The entire Christian theological claim is that Jesus of Nazareth, a "son of man" and the "son of God", walked among us in history, and that these things should and must be tested and verified according to the historical method. See Paul of Tarsus (a former persecutor of some of the first Christians) writing to the Corinthians circa 55 AD: "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead." See Luke the physician writing to Theopilus: "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."
jat850 10y ago
I'm going to disagree with the "or merit" part. For two reasons - the first being related to theology itself, and the other related to another field which is sometimes classified as being without scientific rigor - philosophy. One merit of theology is the study of religious traditions and whether or not they should continue or be discouraged for various reasons, as an example. Not only scientific pursuits have merit. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to imply with your combination of statements, but it's possible to infer that from your choice of words.
- quadrangle 10y ago
  Indeed, and thanks for the feedback, esp. in the form of pointing out the interpretation rather than assuming things or putting words in my mouth. I agree with everything you said. I think it would be good to make a distinction between the anthropology of religion and theology (the latter as the study of the "divine" itself, as though there's such a thing to study. Anthropology has merit for sure and even the practice of religion and even belief in things that aren't scientifically supported may have utility or purpose even if their premise is factually baseless (which isn't to say that everything lacking scientific evidence is necessarily false, just well, lacking scientific evidence).

all_usernames 10y ago

Leaving aside alchemy, (which one can assume most people are fairly uninformed about), the whole notion that theology ought to be considered a waste of time in modern day belies a pretty surprising degree of ignorance. The study of God and religious ideas is equivalent to the study of human nature and the significance of existence itself. This is true regardless of which belief system you care to study. Even avoiding deep concepts usually not found in this forum, religion remains at the heart of the greatest human conflicts of the present day, and is critically central to any understanding of the largest cultural forces in the world. Yeah, what a waste of time!

ajuc 10y ago
You're describing antrophology, not theology. It's the difference between studying Tolkien universe as art and tracing its influences on culture etc on one hand, and searching for Silmarils on the other.
olavk 10y ago
"The study of God" is useless, but the study of people believing in God or gods is useful and quite interesting. These are two different things! The theology of Newton was the former - he literally believed the Bible was the word of God, and by interpreting it he could foresee how the world would end. It was a waste of time because we know now the Bible is actually written by humans.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  This is my experience, and I think a lot of (devout, conservative) theologians believe this -- although that definitely express it in different language! Look at critiques of seminary programs as being "too academic", for example. The "academic" subjects are basically anything and everything that doesn't over-lap with human psychology or business (apologetics and church history, for example).
- junko 10y ago
  > "The study of God" is useless With respect, "God" is just a term referring to a being that has supreme powers that humans imagine to be the best of the best - and different people define these powers and other attributes differently. So even if you are an atheist, the study of Gods can still be an interesting reflection of people and society!