8 ms·

I wish this kind of courses were mandatory for all undergraduates in our post-truth era.

ThomPete 10y ago
Can we stop with the claims about a post-truth era? It's not like people suddenly decided to disregard truth and not believe in actual truths. It's that we have just realized that interpretation is not the same as truth and have now been made aware that there are other interpretations of the facts than our own. We don't live in a post-truth world, we live in a world were the truth is confused with difference of opinion.
- placebo 10y ago
  The fact that you are right about the possibility of taking other interpretations as non truth, does not mean that no opinions are simply misguided and not based on truth. In addition, there have been many articles that are simply made up, which has nothing to do with difference of opinion.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Sure but that does not mean that people don't care about the truth. There have always been made up stories and lies and propaganda and conspiracy theories it's nothing new it's just become much more obvious now and thus actually allowed us to live in a more truth based world rather than the previous ignorant believe that there are only one way to look at things. Politics is about choice not about truth.
- tomp 10y ago
  I think it's more simple than this. People have been trained over decades not to believe or trust politicians (e.g. Obama's "I will close down Guantanamo Bay"). So now they just don't bother any more. Before the media/Democrats can credibly criticise "fake news", they first need to regain the people's trust.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Did people not have history lessons in school? Politics is full of shit since the dawn of time. Politics is war by other means; lies and half-truths are the primary arsenal in this conflict.
  - tacomonstrous 10y ago
    Are you implying that Obama didn't make a good faith effort to do what he promised and wasn't repeatedly thwarted by a leery Congress? Because that's not what happened.
- arethuza 10y ago
  What I have noticed recently is a rather shameless admission by many in politics that not only have they been lying but ultimately that "truth" doesn't matter.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    In politics truth doesn't matter as such and never have. Politics is about getting it your way not about being right. It's about interest and choices. The idea that politics is or should somehow be based on facts is misguided. We have science for facts what we choose to do with those facts is were politics come in.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      Of course, I agree that politics isn't based on facts but the idea that politics shouldn't be based on relevant facts is, to me, an appalling idea.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        But again who decides what are relevant facts? This is the crux of the matter here. What you seem to want to have is a technocratic system.
        arethuza 10y ago
        Ideally I'd expect politicians to pick and choose "facts" that suit there arguments (or on a rare occasion actually have their arguments informed by data) and to ideally reference the sources so they can be checked by anyone who cares. Is that an "elite" approach then? Of course, what I describe above is an ideal - politics is a mucky business and the essence of a democracy is essentially that we get to choose between the liars. However, what I do have difficulty with is the idea that reasoning from actual factual data or scientific hypotheses has no role in politics.
        ThomPete 10y ago
- krapp 10y ago
  >It's not like people suddenly decided to disregard truth and not believe in actual truths. "post-truth" doesn't mean people have decided to disregard truth, it means that factual truth is no longer a relevant factor in in the effectiveness of political arguments for many people. See Karl Rove's quote about the "reality-based" community (which may or may not be apocryphal) versus the American empire which simply creates whatever reality it likes.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    It's never been. Perception have always been reality and politicians have always used that to get things their way. Thats why they study rhetorics not science. There is no objective transcendence between facts and politics decisions. You can believe that climate change is created by humans and still decide not to do anything about it because you also believe that technology will solve most of those problem, or that there are bigger problems (astroid hitting earth for instance) etc.
    - diyorgasms 10y ago
      This is gaslighting. Facts used to matter. It used to be that politicians would substantially lose face for inconsistencies in policy (think John Kerry most recently). Now politicians claim to have never done things they are on film doing, and people believe them. We are absolutely in a new mode of politics, one that transcends mere differences of opinion. To pretend otherwise does everyone a disservice.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        > and people believe them Or don't care. Some people in the US are so far under water, they are desperate for change; such that they'd back Trump whatever. Sexual allegations? Who cares if he can actually tries to bring back my job... Note, I say this without any implication of whether the allegations are true. My point is, people might not care either way. A sexual predator that fixes things is better than an someone virtuous that does nothing.
      - 10y ago
sremani 10y ago
When iPhone was in 3rd or 4th iteration, people talked of post PC era, but at work or at home, you certainly have PC where most "work" is still done. When Obama was elected they said Post-racial america, and we now know how much it is not. So, now some butt-hurt people from election came up with Post-Truth, even though people were constantly conned into stuff that is untrue, like WMDs or you can keep your doctor. After much thought, I forward the motion for Post-Post-Prepending Era.

Can we stop with the claims about a post-truth era? It's not like people suddenly decided to disregard truth and not believe in actual truths. It's that we have just realized that interpretation is not the same as truth and have now been made aware that there are other interpretations of the facts than our own. We don't live in a post-truth world, we live in a world were the truth is confused with difference of opinion.

placebo 10y ago
The fact that you are right about the possibility of taking other interpretations as non truth, does not mean that no opinions are simply misguided and not based on truth. In addition, there have been many articles that are simply made up, which has nothing to do with difference of opinion.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Sure but that does not mean that people don't care about the truth. There have always been made up stories and lies and propaganda and conspiracy theories it's nothing new it's just become much more obvious now and thus actually allowed us to live in a more truth based world rather than the previous ignorant believe that there are only one way to look at things. Politics is about choice not about truth.
tomp 10y ago
I think it's more simple than this. People have been trained over decades not to believe or trust politicians (e.g. Obama's "I will close down Guantanamo Bay"). So now they just don't bother any more. Before the media/Democrats can credibly criticise "fake news", they first need to regain the people's trust.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Did people not have history lessons in school? Politics is full of shit since the dawn of time. Politics is war by other means; lies and half-truths are the primary arsenal in this conflict.
- tacomonstrous 10y ago
  Are you implying that Obama didn't make a good faith effort to do what he promised and wasn't repeatedly thwarted by a leery Congress? Because that's not what happened.
arethuza 10y ago
What I have noticed recently is a rather shameless admission by many in politics that not only have they been lying but ultimately that "truth" doesn't matter.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  In politics truth doesn't matter as such and never have. Politics is about getting it your way not about being right. It's about interest and choices. The idea that politics is or should somehow be based on facts is misguided. We have science for facts what we choose to do with those facts is were politics come in.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Of course, I agree that politics isn't based on facts but the idea that politics shouldn't be based on relevant facts is, to me, an appalling idea.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      But again who decides what are relevant facts? This is the crux of the matter here. What you seem to want to have is a technocratic system.
      - arethuza 10y ago
        Ideally I'd expect politicians to pick and choose "facts" that suit there arguments (or on a rare occasion actually have their arguments informed by data) and to ideally reference the sources so they can be checked by anyone who cares. Is that an "elite" approach then? Of course, what I describe above is an ideal - politics is a mucky business and the essence of a democracy is essentially that we get to choose between the liars. However, what I do have difficulty with is the idea that reasoning from actual factual data or scientific hypotheses has no role in politics.
        ThomPete 10y ago
krapp 10y ago
>It's not like people suddenly decided to disregard truth and not believe in actual truths. "post-truth" doesn't mean people have decided to disregard truth, it means that factual truth is no longer a relevant factor in in the effectiveness of political arguments for many people. See Karl Rove's quote about the "reality-based" community (which may or may not be apocryphal) versus the American empire which simply creates whatever reality it likes.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  It's never been. Perception have always been reality and politicians have always used that to get things their way. Thats why they study rhetorics not science. There is no objective transcendence between facts and politics decisions. You can believe that climate change is created by humans and still decide not to do anything about it because you also believe that technology will solve most of those problem, or that there are bigger problems (astroid hitting earth for instance) etc.
  - diyorgasms 10y ago
    This is gaslighting. Facts used to matter. It used to be that politicians would substantially lose face for inconsistencies in policy (think John Kerry most recently). Now politicians claim to have never done things they are on film doing, and people believe them. We are absolutely in a new mode of politics, one that transcends mere differences of opinion. To pretend otherwise does everyone a disservice.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > and people believe them Or don't care. Some people in the US are so far under water, they are desperate for change; such that they'd back Trump whatever. Sexual allegations? Who cares if he can actually tries to bring back my job... Note, I say this without any implication of whether the allegations are true. My point is, people might not care either way. A sexual predator that fixes things is better than an someone virtuous that does nothing.
    - 10y ago

sremani 10y ago

When iPhone was in 3rd or 4th iteration, people talked of post PC era, but at work or at home, you certainly have PC where most "work" is still done. When Obama was elected they said Post-racial america, and we now know how much it is not. So, now some butt-hurt people from election came up with Post-Truth, even though people were constantly conned into stuff that is untrue, like WMDs or you can keep your doctor. After much thought, I forward the motion for Post-Post-Prepending Era.