5 ms·

> China has done better than any other country on Earth at poverty reduction This is only true if you're applying a ludicrous double standard. China has done b

by loeber 10y ago

> China has done better than any other country on Earth at poverty reduction This is only true if you're applying a ludicrous double standard. China has done better than most other countries at this because China was extremely poor just a few decades back. Nowadays, much of China is still very poor. Of course it's much easier for China to slash its poverty rates than for an already-developed nation. The real thing to ask about is how long it will take China to bring a western middle-class style quality of life to its citizens.

tim333 10y ago
China was the world's largest economy before about 1900. They have done an impressive job at screwing that up and then recovering a bit. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-2163610-13BFDBFA000005DC-981_634x286.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-2163610-13...
dcposch 10y ago
Im comparing China to other countries that were similarly poor in 1980-- much of the world, including the second biggest country, India. China did much better than them. I don't think any other society in history has lifted as many people out of poverty in as short a time.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Did American corporations not gift China with a massive amount of free, working out of the box technology to get them going?
  - maksimum 10y ago
    Are you referring to surveillance/data processing technology specifically or technological advances in general? If it's general advances, I don't see how it's really relevant. To some extent, similar technologies are available to all countries at this point, so its down to governments and society wrt how productively these technologies are leveraged. The classic example of this is how landline telephony is much less prevalent than cellular in much of Africa. Landline technology was effectively skipped. I don't think African governments and societies are benefitting at the expense of western cell phone businesses. It's not a zero-sum game in this respect.
    - mistermann 10y ago
      No, just that they were more or less a third world country with extremely cheap and hard working labor, I'm under the impression that American (and European, etc) companies went over there and provided equipment and expertise to set up fully functioning manufacturing plants, China had to provide the labor. It seems fairly unlikely to me that China turned into the manufacturer of the world in such a short period of time without being gifted the skills and technology to do so. And now, companies like Xiamoi can now challenge (or, at least run with) the tech leaders. Pretty impressive transformation in < 20 years.
  - agentcoops 10y ago
    "History is like a grandmother; it loves the younger grand-children. To the latecomers it gives not the bones but the marrow, while Western Europe has hurt her fingers badly in her attempts to break the bones."
    - Tarq0n 10y ago
      That seems ignorant of the cumulative advantage that Europe enjoys to this day. If anything it illustrates how technological development is shared on a global scale, allowing anyone to catch up to the latest standard of industrialization if they can find the necessary investment.
    - mistermann 10y ago
      This sounds interesting but I don't think I'm catching the full meaning....
  - yyhhsj0521 10y ago
    Not really... Like US government even banned Intel from selling certain chips to China, and Chinese rocket scientists are somehow not able to attend any conference hosted by NASA (not sure about this one).
- logicchains 10y ago
  Why not compare China to countries that were similarly poor in the 1950s? China, Korea, Taiwan were comparable then, but Korea and Taiwan have leaped ahead now due to saner government. If anything how poor China is in PPP GDP per capita terms vs Taiwan/Korea should be taken as an indictment of how terrible the government's been.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    Because getting something to happen in a large country is much much harder than in a smaller country. China is literally 20 times the size of Korea AND Taiwan. To achieve growth in a small country, you can be nimble and find relatively small market opportunities and then exploit them relentlessly. That simply doesn't scale to 1bn+ people.
    - MagnumOpus 10y ago
      > To achieve growth in a small country, you can be nimble and find relatively small market opportunities and then exploit them relentlessly. That simply doesn't scale to 1bn+ people. Economic reality is actually the opposite of what you state. A big country represents a big domestic market - you don't need export niches or even good products, but can just build to service the internal markets, with massive economics of scale - and then muscle your way into foreign markets when all your corporations are 800lbs gorillas. If Taiwan is wealthier than the PRC, it is not because their economy and population is so tiny - there is another reason...
      - smallnamespace 10y ago
        All countries with the highest GDP per capita are small: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... You need to get to Norway before you see a reasonably sized country. If what you claimed was true, the US would be on top.
    - moeffju 10y ago
      Almost 40 times, actually. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+china+%2F+(area+of+korea+%2B+area+of+taiwan) https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+china+%2F+(are...
- scythe 10y ago
  If you look only at raw numbers, there are literally two candidates. But if you look at proportions, there's a different story to be told. Chile 1973-2000 comes to mind, or some colonial governments, which, like China, achieved success by replicating strategies already known to work. In fact one of the best examples pf this is Stalin's Russia, and an analysis of this general pattern is given by Paul Krugman in this 1994 article: http://faculty.georgetown.edu/mh5/class/econ102/readings/myth_of_asias-miracle.pdf http://faculty.georgetown.edu/mh5/class/econ102/readings/myt... Japan 1960-1985 is another good example. With regard to the authoritarian structure of China, one disease that persistently affects these systems is adverse selection based on cultural evolution, i.e. the populace "learns" to get around the system and it works as long as the system is sufficiently oppressive that most people sympathize with the rule-breakers, see also the War on Drugs and de facto legalization of marijuana in some small towns. The thing about corruption in bureaucratic heir-choosing (Caesarian?) systems is that once corruption gets in there's almost no way to get it out whereas a democracy can rebel
battlebot 10y ago
They can never achieve that without political reform that removes collectivism and replaces it with individualism and I'm not even sure that is possible with 1.5 Billion people or whatever they are up to now.
eva1984 10y ago
> western middle-class style quality I don't think there is unified western middle-class style quality in every western country. US on average is richer than many european countries, where average wage is around 1k per month, is this middle class or not? Much of China is still poor. There is also 50-100 million estimated Chinese now can afford modern cozy life(income 16k to 34k dollars per household), whether that is western style(air quality is certainly not :p), I don't know. Both exist, no point using one to deny the other. Only emphasizing the poor part of China, overlooking the fact there is rising urban population seems like a lot of people are still in denial of the fact China is already a serious competitor in many fields. http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-explod...

by loeber 10y ago

tim333 10y ago

China was the world's largest economy before about 1900. They have done an impressive job at screwing that up and then recovering a bit. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-2163610-13BFDBFA000005DC-981_634x286.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/23/article-2163610-13...

dcposch 10y ago

Im comparing China to other countries that were similarly poor in 1980-- much of the world, including the second biggest country, India. China did much better than them. I don't think any other society in history has lifted as many people out of poverty in as short a time.

mistermann 10y ago
Did American corporations not gift China with a massive amount of free, working out of the box technology to get them going?
- maksimum 10y ago
  Are you referring to surveillance/data processing technology specifically or technological advances in general? If it's general advances, I don't see how it's really relevant. To some extent, similar technologies are available to all countries at this point, so its down to governments and society wrt how productively these technologies are leveraged. The classic example of this is how landline telephony is much less prevalent than cellular in much of Africa. Landline technology was effectively skipped. I don't think African governments and societies are benefitting at the expense of western cell phone businesses. It's not a zero-sum game in this respect.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    No, just that they were more or less a third world country with extremely cheap and hard working labor, I'm under the impression that American (and European, etc) companies went over there and provided equipment and expertise to set up fully functioning manufacturing plants, China had to provide the labor. It seems fairly unlikely to me that China turned into the manufacturer of the world in such a short period of time without being gifted the skills and technology to do so. And now, companies like Xiamoi can now challenge (or, at least run with) the tech leaders. Pretty impressive transformation in < 20 years.
- agentcoops 10y ago
  "History is like a grandmother; it loves the younger grand-children. To the latecomers it gives not the bones but the marrow, while Western Europe has hurt her fingers badly in her attempts to break the bones."
  - Tarq0n 10y ago
    That seems ignorant of the cumulative advantage that Europe enjoys to this day. If anything it illustrates how technological development is shared on a global scale, allowing anyone to catch up to the latest standard of industrialization if they can find the necessary investment.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    This sounds interesting but I don't think I'm catching the full meaning....
- yyhhsj0521 10y ago
  Not really... Like US government even banned Intel from selling certain chips to China, and Chinese rocket scientists are somehow not able to attend any conference hosted by NASA (not sure about this one).
logicchains 10y ago
Why not compare China to countries that were similarly poor in the 1950s? China, Korea, Taiwan were comparable then, but Korea and Taiwan have leaped ahead now due to saner government. If anything how poor China is in PPP GDP per capita terms vs Taiwan/Korea should be taken as an indictment of how terrible the government's been.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  Because getting something to happen in a large country is much much harder than in a smaller country. China is literally 20 times the size of Korea AND Taiwan. To achieve growth in a small country, you can be nimble and find relatively small market opportunities and then exploit them relentlessly. That simply doesn't scale to 1bn+ people.
  - MagnumOpus 10y ago
    > To achieve growth in a small country, you can be nimble and find relatively small market opportunities and then exploit them relentlessly. That simply doesn't scale to 1bn+ people. Economic reality is actually the opposite of what you state. A big country represents a big domestic market - you don't need export niches or even good products, but can just build to service the internal markets, with massive economics of scale - and then muscle your way into foreign markets when all your corporations are 800lbs gorillas. If Taiwan is wealthier than the PRC, it is not because their economy and population is so tiny - there is another reason...
    - smallnamespace 10y ago
      All countries with the highest GDP per capita are small: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... You need to get to Norway before you see a reasonably sized country. If what you claimed was true, the US would be on top.
  - moeffju 10y ago
    Almost 40 times, actually. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+china+%2F+(area+of+korea+%2B+area+of+taiwan) https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+china+%2F+(are...
scythe 10y ago
If you look only at raw numbers, there are literally two candidates. But if you look at proportions, there's a different story to be told. Chile 1973-2000 comes to mind, or some colonial governments, which, like China, achieved success by replicating strategies already known to work. In fact one of the best examples pf this is Stalin's Russia, and an analysis of this general pattern is given by Paul Krugman in this 1994 article: http://faculty.georgetown.edu/mh5/class/econ102/readings/myth_of_asias-miracle.pdf http://faculty.georgetown.edu/mh5/class/econ102/readings/myt... Japan 1960-1985 is another good example. With regard to the authoritarian structure of China, one disease that persistently affects these systems is adverse selection based on cultural evolution, i.e. the populace "learns" to get around the system and it works as long as the system is sufficiently oppressive that most people sympathize with the rule-breakers, see also the War on Drugs and de facto legalization of marijuana in some small towns. The thing about corruption in bureaucratic heir-choosing (Caesarian?) systems is that once corruption gets in there's almost no way to get it out whereas a democracy can rebel

battlebot 10y ago

They can never achieve that without political reform that removes collectivism and replaces it with individualism and I'm not even sure that is possible with 1.5 Billion people or whatever they are up to now.

eva1984 10y ago

> western middle-class style quality I don't think there is unified western middle-class style quality in every western country. US on average is richer than many european countries, where average wage is around 1k per month, is this middle class or not? Much of China is still poor. There is also 50-100 million estimated Chinese now can afford modern cozy life(income 16k to 34k dollars per household), whether that is western style(air quality is certainly not :p), I don't know. Both exist, no point using one to deny the other. Only emphasizing the poor part of China, overlooking the fact there is rising urban population seems like a lot of people are still in denial of the fact China is already a serious competitor in many fields. http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-explod...