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With the exception of denying the validity of science, couldn't most of those things be said about President Obama and most mainstream Democrats as well, partic

by Inconel 10y ago

With the exception of denying the validity of science, couldn't most of those things be said about President Obama and most mainstream Democrats as well, particularly in regards to issues like mass surveillance?

ryandamm 10y ago
I do have heartburn about mass surveillance -- and watching "Citizen Four" was an eye-opener. Snowden should be pardoned, and given a medal. But I think there's false equivalence at work, here. Maybe there are no good guys in politics, but there are definitely bad guys. I think Obama was a thoughtful, careful centrist on most issues. He tried to be bipartisan early in his first term. The Republicans were categorically obstructionist. Trump is a populist demagogue. Downvote away if you must, but look up the definition of those words too. It's true. And saying "eh, they're all the same anyway" misses the point. It's easy and convenient to say that, and maybe it makes you seem cool. But it's really not true. Obama is nothing like Trump. They're both complicated men. But they're not equivalent, not even close. I mean, let's be real, here: one's the child of a single mother and an immigrant, who experienced the world as an immigrant, and growing up in the US as a black man. The other inherited a fortune from his father, and made his reputation play-acting as a boss on reality television. (The first one is Obama, the second one is Trump.) Their biographies are wildly divergent, as are their reasons for public service, and what they're trying to do while in office.
- Inconel 10y ago
  I appreciate your response, but still disagree on some things. I'm not necessarily convinced that Obama was as thoughtful as he's made out to be. He's certainly more polished than many politicians but underneath that veneer he seems every bit as calculating and power hungry as most. And to be honest, if he is as thoughtful as many say, and yet still endorsed the expansion of mass surveillance along with some of our recent foreign policy interventions, my opinion of him would probably go even lower. With regards to false equivalency, I'm sympathetic to your point and even agree that Obama and Trump are not equal on my sliding scale of bad, but from my personal point of view, when both are already so far down that scale it can become difficult for me to parse the differences. As to any downvotes you have received, none of them came from me. We might disagree here but I think we've both been respectful of each other's views. As a side note, I generally really dislike the downvote mechanism as a way to voice disagreement. If I disagree with a comment enough to consider downvoting it, I find it much more constructive to instead post a rebuttal.
  - ryandamm 10y ago
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think that the mechanics of governing are probably mind-boggling, but parsing the "less-bad" from the "more-bad" is definitely the job of today's voter -- and those seemingly minor differences have real effects that will affect people's lives, both Americans and citizens of the world. Though I share your dissatisfaction with US foreign policy. It's probably one of those "no good answer" situations, though. Lots of people have died in Syria, for example, and I'm at a loss for what the 'best' policy response would have been, even with the benefit of hindsight. All I know is I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions. And I'm not so dissatisfied with the downvote mechanism, partly because I generally don't think these discussions belong on HN. Normally I show more restraint...!
ryandamm 10y ago
(To be clear, I'm referring to Obama's time in Indonesia when I say he experienced life as an immigrant. Obviously I'm not trafficking in ridiculous, racist falsehoods like our President-elect.)

by Inconel 10y ago

ryandamm 10y ago

I do have heartburn about mass surveillance -- and watching "Citizen Four" was an eye-opener. Snowden should be pardoned, and given a medal. But I think there's false equivalence at work, here. Maybe there are no good guys in politics, but there are definitely bad guys. I think Obama was a thoughtful, careful centrist on most issues. He tried to be bipartisan early in his first term. The Republicans were categorically obstructionist. Trump is a populist demagogue. Downvote away if you must, but look up the definition of those words too. It's true. And saying "eh, they're all the same anyway" misses the point. It's easy and convenient to say that, and maybe it makes you seem cool. But it's really not true. Obama is nothing like Trump. They're both complicated men. But they're not equivalent, not even close. I mean, let's be real, here: one's the child of a single mother and an immigrant, who experienced the world as an immigrant, and growing up in the US as a black man. The other inherited a fortune from his father, and made his reputation play-acting as a boss on reality television. (The first one is Obama, the second one is Trump.) Their biographies are wildly divergent, as are their reasons for public service, and what they're trying to do while in office.

Inconel 10y ago
I appreciate your response, but still disagree on some things. I'm not necessarily convinced that Obama was as thoughtful as he's made out to be. He's certainly more polished than many politicians but underneath that veneer he seems every bit as calculating and power hungry as most. And to be honest, if he is as thoughtful as many say, and yet still endorsed the expansion of mass surveillance along with some of our recent foreign policy interventions, my opinion of him would probably go even lower. With regards to false equivalency, I'm sympathetic to your point and even agree that Obama and Trump are not equal on my sliding scale of bad, but from my personal point of view, when both are already so far down that scale it can become difficult for me to parse the differences. As to any downvotes you have received, none of them came from me. We might disagree here but I think we've both been respectful of each other's views. As a side note, I generally really dislike the downvote mechanism as a way to voice disagreement. If I disagree with a comment enough to consider downvoting it, I find it much more constructive to instead post a rebuttal.
- ryandamm 10y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think that the mechanics of governing are probably mind-boggling, but parsing the "less-bad" from the "more-bad" is definitely the job of today's voter -- and those seemingly minor differences have real effects that will affect people's lives, both Americans and citizens of the world. Though I share your dissatisfaction with US foreign policy. It's probably one of those "no good answer" situations, though. Lots of people have died in Syria, for example, and I'm at a loss for what the 'best' policy response would have been, even with the benefit of hindsight. All I know is I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions. And I'm not so dissatisfied with the downvote mechanism, partly because I generally don't think these discussions belong on HN. Normally I show more restraint...!

ryandamm 10y ago

(To be clear, I'm referring to Obama's time in Indonesia when I say he experienced life as an immigrant. Obviously I'm not trafficking in ridiculous, racist falsehoods like our President-elect.)