4 ms·

I don't like this line of thought - being anti-Russian because it is a "tradition". There a lot more specific things to oppose Putin specifically and his 21st

by dimitar 10y ago

I don't like this line of thought - being anti-Russian because it is a "tradition". There a lot more specific things to oppose Putin specifically and his 21st century Kremlin for: * the wars in the North Caucasus, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria. * the enormous plunder of Russia's natural resources and the corruption/bribery of democratic governments. * the sponsoring of hateful ideologies and their export across the world. * the unscrupulous sale of weapons to warlords and dictators across the developing world * the war on truth - the killing and intimidation of journalists, the fake news on Russian channels, the spread of FUD on western media, even the wave of Internet trolls.

gaius 10y ago
the wars in the North Caucasus, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria The wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya... the enormous plunder of Russia's natural resources The Dakota Access Pipeline the sponsoring of hateful ideologies and their export across the world The cosy relationship with the exporters of Wahhabism the unscrupulous sale of weapons to warlords and dictators across the developing world Handing out weapons like candy to every faction in the Middle East the war on truth CNN
- placeybordeaux 10y ago
  > CNN So CNN is controlled by the us government?
  - r00fus 10y ago
    I'll just leave this here: http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/why-were-government-propaganda-experts-working-on-news-at-cnn/ http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/why-were-governmen...
    - placeybordeaux 10y ago
      Please be upfront in what you are insinuating. That article indicates that there was an incident where 3 US PSYOPs agents worked as interns at CNN until it was reported upon. That is worrying, but a far cry from showing that CNN is the mouth piece of the US, or that they are committing some sort of "war on truth", especially when the context is killing journalists and employing entire agencies of people to troll online.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Opposition to all of the offenses, when based on one's principles, extends to when they are committed by the United States. I know that propaganda outfits in the US and Russia would all love for us to become avatars of their power struggle, but we still retain individual moral autonomy and can exercise it as we see fit.
- dimitar 10y ago
  Actually there is a false equivalency even if I take your list on face value - the things you mentioned are done by multiple actors: two US administrations, Congress, Tribal and sectoral militias, Middle-Eastern governments, even private entities (CNN). On the Russian side your have Putin and his vertical of power (the popular term for his centralized, personal rule of Russia). I also don't understand the point - is any of these things I listed OK because the "US" does them (or vice versa)? Looks like the 'Tu quoque' or 'appeal to hypocrisy' logical fallacy.
  - throw_away 10y ago
    It's also tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
  - gaius 10y ago
    Actually there is a false equivalency It is not false at all. The reality is that nations pursue their national interests, and the exact mechanism by which they organise themselves to do so is a mere implication detail.
    - contrast 10y ago
      How you organise yourself is a huge part of if and how you value people other than yourself. Some of us think democracy, free speech, civil liberties are important, because other people matter, and we are better off even with flawed implementations of those ideals. So sure, cast them aside as mere "implication details" if you like. The Internet will always be full of nihilistic kids who don't think anything is worth standing up for, and it's valuable to have examples to point to.
      - gaius 10y ago
        democracy, free speech, civil liberties are important That's funny because when any country engages in any policy it believes itself to be "the good guys". Russia didn't export revolution "because we are evil lol" but it saw itself as liberating the oppressed every bit as America does when it launches the bombers. Again. One bombing mission on average every 20 minutes for the last 8 years. Show me some actual evidence that American values are any different than Russia's.
letsfixsomelie 10y ago
the wars in the North Caucasus, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria. North Caucasus -- CIA trained terrorist "wanted" independence, been cutting Russian soldiers necks and film it. (its a typical form of report CIA uses) Georgia -- CIA puppet Mikheil Saakashvili made a coup, attacked Ossetia with tanks, they were killing civillians. Russia saved Ossetians, and now that scumbag is considered a criminal in his own homeland. Ukraine -- CIA controlled coup that was done in violation of the Ukraines constitution, Petro Poroshenko is a new CIA puppet. Mikheil Saakashvili is now a governor in the Ukraine city Odessa (wow, such surprise) Syria -- US. the enormous plunder of Russia's natural resources and the corruption/bribery of democratic governments. Yes, exactly what happened when CIA controlled puppet Gorbatchev sellout USSR. Putin fixed it. (the best way possible in 17 years.) the sponsoring of hateful ideologies and their export across the world. CIA created Osama bin Laden and other terrorists. You need to learn, now figure out which country is a true sponsor. the unscrupulous sale of weapons to warlords and dictators across the developing world Exactly what US is doing, that's why there is still no order in Syria. the war on truth - CNN and Co the killing and intimidation of journalists - biased mass media propaganda sources. the fake news on Russian channels - you starting to fall to the total bullshit here, oh well. (total == 100%, nice propaganda meme) the spread of FUD on western media - CNN told you that RT is bad? Poor guy. even the wave of Internet trolls. - I would call you one of them, but how is Russia related to that? On the Russian side your have Putin and his vertical of power - every organization has a vertical of power. I also don't understand the point - is any of these things I listed OK because the "US" does them - you listed lies, the guy mentioned US because of context.

by dimitar 10y ago

gaius 10y ago

the wars in the North Caucasus, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria The wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya... the enormous plunder of Russia's natural resources The Dakota Access Pipeline the sponsoring of hateful ideologies and their export across the world The cosy relationship with the exporters of Wahhabism the unscrupulous sale of weapons to warlords and dictators across the developing world Handing out weapons like candy to every faction in the Middle East the war on truth CNN

placeybordeaux 10y ago
> CNN So CNN is controlled by the us government?
- r00fus 10y ago
  I'll just leave this here: http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/why-were-government-propaganda-experts-working-on-news-at-cnn/ http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/why-were-governmen...
  - placeybordeaux 10y ago
    Please be upfront in what you are insinuating. That article indicates that there was an incident where 3 US PSYOPs agents worked as interns at CNN until it was reported upon. That is worrying, but a far cry from showing that CNN is the mouth piece of the US, or that they are committing some sort of "war on truth", especially when the context is killing journalists and employing entire agencies of people to troll online.
alphonsegaston 10y ago
Opposition to all of the offenses, when based on one's principles, extends to when they are committed by the United States. I know that propaganda outfits in the US and Russia would all love for us to become avatars of their power struggle, but we still retain individual moral autonomy and can exercise it as we see fit.
dimitar 10y ago
Actually there is a false equivalency even if I take your list on face value - the things you mentioned are done by multiple actors: two US administrations, Congress, Tribal and sectoral militias, Middle-Eastern governments, even private entities (CNN). On the Russian side your have Putin and his vertical of power (the popular term for his centralized, personal rule of Russia). I also don't understand the point - is any of these things I listed OK because the "US" does them (or vice versa)? Looks like the 'Tu quoque' or 'appeal to hypocrisy' logical fallacy.
- throw_away 10y ago
  It's also tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
- gaius 10y ago
  Actually there is a false equivalency It is not false at all. The reality is that nations pursue their national interests, and the exact mechanism by which they organise themselves to do so is a mere implication detail.
  - contrast 10y ago
    How you organise yourself is a huge part of if and how you value people other than yourself. Some of us think democracy, free speech, civil liberties are important, because other people matter, and we are better off even with flawed implementations of those ideals. So sure, cast them aside as mere "implication details" if you like. The Internet will always be full of nihilistic kids who don't think anything is worth standing up for, and it's valuable to have examples to point to.
    - gaius 10y ago
      democracy, free speech, civil liberties are important That's funny because when any country engages in any policy it believes itself to be "the good guys". Russia didn't export revolution "because we are evil lol" but it saw itself as liberating the oppressed every bit as America does when it launches the bombers. Again. One bombing mission on average every 20 minutes for the last 8 years. Show me some actual evidence that American values are any different than Russia's.

letsfixsomelie 10y ago

the wars in the North Caucasus, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria. North Caucasus -- CIA trained terrorist "wanted" independence, been cutting Russian soldiers necks and film it. (its a typical form of report CIA uses) Georgia -- CIA puppet Mikheil Saakashvili made a coup, attacked Ossetia with tanks, they were killing civillians. Russia saved Ossetians, and now that scumbag is considered a criminal in his own homeland. Ukraine -- CIA controlled coup that was done in violation of the Ukraines constitution, Petro Poroshenko is a new CIA puppet. Mikheil Saakashvili is now a governor in the Ukraine city Odessa (wow, such surprise) Syria -- US. the enormous plunder of Russia's natural resources and the corruption/bribery of democratic governments. Yes, exactly what happened when CIA controlled puppet Gorbatchev sellout USSR. Putin fixed it. (the best way possible in 17 years.) the sponsoring of hateful ideologies and their export across the world. CIA created Osama bin Laden and other terrorists. You need to learn, now figure out which country is a true sponsor. the unscrupulous sale of weapons to warlords and dictators across the developing world Exactly what US is doing, that's why there is still no order in Syria. the war on truth - CNN and Co the killing and intimidation of journalists - biased mass media propaganda sources. the fake news on Russian channels - you starting to fall to the total bullshit here, oh well. (total == 100%, nice propaganda meme) the spread of FUD on western media - CNN told you that RT is bad? Poor guy. even the wave of Internet trolls. - I would call you one of them, but how is Russia related to that? On the Russian side your have Putin and his vertical of power - every organization has a vertical of power. I also don't understand the point - is any of these things I listed OK because the "US" does them - you listed lies, the guy mentioned US because of context.