8 ms·

I really gotta move out of California... It's not a California thing. As part of my job, I spend a lot of time presenting at public meetings and in my spare ti

I really gotta move out of California... It's not a California thing. As part of my job, I spend a lot of time presenting at public meetings and in my spare time I do a fair amount of advocacy (for various causes) which also results in a lot of time in public meetings. I've been in public meetings in small rural villages and large cities across 30 states. And I've observed the same thing - the folks that attend those meetings tend to be dominated by those affluent enough to take the time to go. The starkest example of that are public meetings in poor cities where projects will affect large minority areas and yet 95% of the attendees will be affluent folks from the outer suburbs. It's not that the affected folks don't care, it just that when the meeting is held at 2pm or 5pm or even 6pm on a weeknight, they have jobs to go to and they can't make time to attend. The most diverse, well-attended public meetings I've been to have always been held on Saturday afternoons.

Spooky23 10y ago
I think that's a cynical view that doesn't reflect reality. In my experience, people will be engaged if you engage them. Typically what happens in these scenarios is somebody gets a grant and decides to do something, and they put a public posting in the janitors closet in the women's room in the city hall basement. My city is doing a refining effort where they publicly over faux-communicate. There's lots of meetings with brainstorming, fancy pictures, etc. Than a preliminary document dump written in jargon. Then, days before the decisions get made, there's a Friday night drop with the "decisions". Then people find out at the last second if they are lucky. At that point all decisions are made. Partial public financing is typically lined up. The only way to effectively get any voice is to rally around some bullshit regulatory point.
- thex10 10y ago
  > I think that's a cynical view that doesn't reflect reality. How on earth is that the case? They recounted their experience, which took place in reality. That was their reality.
- grok2 10y ago
  Not sure why you think it's a "cynical view that doesn't reflect reality" -- the OP indicated it was their direct experience which appears to be vastly more than an armchair commentator's....
walterbell 10y ago
We need to follow the example of Ancient Greece, where citizens got paid time off work to attend the Ecclesia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Athens) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Athens) > It had the final say on legislation and the right to call magistrates to account after their year of office. In the 5th century BC its members numbered about 43,000 people. It would have been difficult, however, for non-wealthy people outside of the urban center of Athens to attend until payments for attendance were introduced in the late 5th century. It originally met once every month, but later it met three or four times per month. Today, "ecclesiastical" is associated with a centrally managed church, but the term is rooted in a democratic assembly, with payment for attendance enabling representation of more segments of the citizenry.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  That system worked because of a tremendous number of slaves, though.
  - lawpoop 10y ago
    Well, since that time, we've moved away from slavery to labor saving machines. Since we're at a point where many people are under-employed, and we expect many more to become so, we can probably re-institute something like this. After all, the United States was a crazy experiment to revive 2,000-year-old Greek idea called 'Democracy'. While we did have slaves at the beginning, we have managed to enfranchise all adults politically. Maybe the Ecclesia could work, too.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      > Since we're at a point where many people are under-employed, and we expect many more to become so, we can probably re-institute something like this. Call me old-fashioned but I don't think locking people in as a permanent underclass is a good idea. And practically speaking I'm not sure how a slave society where the slaveholders have special rights to participate in democratic society is an improvement over a system where poor people have trouble participating because of their jobs or their resources but not because they don't have the right to.
ryandrake 10y ago
This is exactly why national US voting is held mid-day on a Tuesday. Sure you have mail-in ballots now, but the default in-person voting time/date is surely deliberately designed to favor a particular demographic.
- exhilaration 10y ago
  Midday? I agree the that midweek choice is a problem but the voting hours are quite flexing on voting day in the region I live in: New York: 6am-9pm New Jersey: 6am-8pm Connecticut: 6am-8pm Pennsylvania: 7am-8pm
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    You can also mail in for weeks ahead of time... but then I guess you lose the events of the last days to judge...
- sundvor 10y ago
  That's pretty sickening, but can't help but consider true. Upvoted and added this comment for emphasis. In Australia voting day is always a Saturday, from 8 am to 6 pm, also with ample opportunity to mail in beforehand. Oh and you'll be fined if you don't cast your vote... It may not be perfect, but appears way more democratic to me than the US elections. http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/polling.htm http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/polling.htm (When I left Norway nearly two decades ago, so glad I didn't go to the US now.)
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    >but can't help but consider true You may want to reconsider your logical approach here, because it's not true at all.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    I often vote absentee (or "early" this year) in the US because of travel or just because. But if I had to vote in person I'd guess I'd miss at least as many votes on weekends because I'm off somewhere as weekdays. I'm also unconvinced that forced voting is a positive. If you don't care enough to develop an opinion and vote, why should your random "because you have to" vote count?

Spooky23 10y ago

I think that's a cynical view that doesn't reflect reality. In my experience, people will be engaged if you engage them. Typically what happens in these scenarios is somebody gets a grant and decides to do something, and they put a public posting in the janitors closet in the women's room in the city hall basement. My city is doing a refining effort where they publicly over faux-communicate. There's lots of meetings with brainstorming, fancy pictures, etc. Than a preliminary document dump written in jargon. Then, days before the decisions get made, there's a Friday night drop with the "decisions". Then people find out at the last second if they are lucky. At that point all decisions are made. Partial public financing is typically lined up. The only way to effectively get any voice is to rally around some bullshit regulatory point.

thex10 10y ago
> I think that's a cynical view that doesn't reflect reality. How on earth is that the case? They recounted their experience, which took place in reality. That was their reality.
grok2 10y ago
Not sure why you think it's a "cynical view that doesn't reflect reality" -- the OP indicated it was their direct experience which appears to be vastly more than an armchair commentator's....

walterbell 10y ago

We need to follow the example of Ancient Greece, where citizens got paid time off work to attend the Ecclesia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Athens) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Athens) > It had the final say on legislation and the right to call magistrates to account after their year of office. In the 5th century BC its members numbered about 43,000 people. It would have been difficult, however, for non-wealthy people outside of the urban center of Athens to attend until payments for attendance were introduced in the late 5th century. It originally met once every month, but later it met three or four times per month. Today, "ecclesiastical" is associated with a centrally managed church, but the term is rooted in a democratic assembly, with payment for attendance enabling representation of more segments of the citizenry.

emodendroket 10y ago
That system worked because of a tremendous number of slaves, though.
- lawpoop 10y ago
  Well, since that time, we've moved away from slavery to labor saving machines. Since we're at a point where many people are under-employed, and we expect many more to become so, we can probably re-institute something like this. After all, the United States was a crazy experiment to revive 2,000-year-old Greek idea called 'Democracy'. While we did have slaves at the beginning, we have managed to enfranchise all adults politically. Maybe the Ecclesia could work, too.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    > Since we're at a point where many people are under-employed, and we expect many more to become so, we can probably re-institute something like this. Call me old-fashioned but I don't think locking people in as a permanent underclass is a good idea. And practically speaking I'm not sure how a slave society where the slaveholders have special rights to participate in democratic society is an improvement over a system where poor people have trouble participating because of their jobs or their resources but not because they don't have the right to.

ryandrake 10y ago

This is exactly why national US voting is held mid-day on a Tuesday. Sure you have mail-in ballots now, but the default in-person voting time/date is surely deliberately designed to favor a particular demographic.

exhilaration 10y ago
Midday? I agree the that midweek choice is a problem but the voting hours are quite flexing on voting day in the region I live in: New York: 6am-9pm New Jersey: 6am-8pm Connecticut: 6am-8pm Pennsylvania: 7am-8pm
- brianwawok 10y ago
  You can also mail in for weeks ahead of time... but then I guess you lose the events of the last days to judge...
sundvor 10y ago
That's pretty sickening, but can't help but consider true. Upvoted and added this comment for emphasis. In Australia voting day is always a Saturday, from 8 am to 6 pm, also with ample opportunity to mail in beforehand. Oh and you'll be fined if you don't cast your vote... It may not be perfect, but appears way more democratic to me than the US elections. http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/polling.htm http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/polling.htm (When I left Norway nearly two decades ago, so glad I didn't go to the US now.)
- EpicEng 10y ago
  >but can't help but consider true You may want to reconsider your logical approach here, because it's not true at all.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I often vote absentee (or "early" this year) in the US because of travel or just because. But if I had to vote in person I'd guess I'd miss at least as many votes on weekends because I'm off somewhere as weekdays. I'm also unconvinced that forced voting is a positive. If you don't care enough to develop an opinion and vote, why should your random "because you have to" vote count?