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> Israel has no interest in Gaza The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) ma

by Cyph0n 10y ago

> Israel has no interest in Gaza The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) makes me think otherwise. > they just want them to stop trying to attack And the best way to do that is to carpet bomb the city every few years and deny it aid after doing so. I'm certain that the many children who lost their entire families will love Israel forever. > If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). What a generous gesture!

ars 10y ago
> The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years You have got to be a troll, or did you forget that Hamas attacked Israel? I assume you think Israel should have just ignored that? > in the 21st century If the residents of Gaza actually joined the 21 century (for example in programs like what this submission is about) things might be quite different. > And the best way to do that You suggest something then.... What would you do with a population that just wants to kill you? Let them do it? > will love Israel forever. As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions. Seriously, do you not know even the slightest thing about the history of the area? > What a generous gesture! What other country leaves the communication of the opponent wide open during a war? Disrupting communication is like class 101 during warfare.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  > As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions not sure if this is a serious statement or not. your tone suggests serious but your words are not serious.
  - ars 10y ago
    Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel. Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all. There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews. If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian not hate Jews, what makes you think there is any chance for a Palestinian not to? If you want to change this, first see if you have any success in Egypt.
    - Cyph0n 10y ago
      You are overgeneralizing. Morocco and Tunisia (my home country) have some of the oldest Jewish populations in the world. As a Tunisian, I am extremely proud to have Jewish brothers and sisters who share my culture. My grandparents (from both sides) had very close friends who happened to be Jewish. Yes, they have decreased in number over the years, but I think Tunisia has done a good job protecting them. For example, right after the 2011 revolution, the interim government immediately reassured the Jewish community of Djerba that they would be protected. Also, El Ghriba synagogue in Djerba is one of the oldest in the world AFAIK. I haven't visited it yet though!
      - starik36 10y ago
        That maybe true. But nearly 99% of the Jews did leave Tunisia, according to the Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Tunisia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Mu.... In 1948, there were 105,000 Jews in Tunisia. Now there are 1,500. How do you explain that?
        icebraining 10y ago
        With the creation of an affluent Jewish state that grants them automatic citizenship?
        berntb 10y ago
        You can't get 99% of a population to leave their homes where they grew up without hard push factors. Especially since their assets were confiscated...
        Cyph0n 10y ago
        That was a dark time and was fueled by politics rather than the respect of the local population. A large percentage of the Jewish population left for France and Israel - I believe it was an almost 50/50 split between the two. More notably, this was a move by the Tunisian government, in "solidarity" with Palestine and in agreement with the rest of the Muslim world. This does not mean it was right of course. From my conversations with my paternal grandfather (b. 1927), Jews were treated like regular Tunisians.
YZF 10y ago
Gaza has chosen a confrontational attitude with their neighbors Egypt and Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they proceeded to promptly demolish the greenhouses that Israel left (and I believed donors actually purchased for them). Next was lynching their fellow Palestinians who happened to support Fatah rather than Hamas. Tunneling under the borders. Rocket attacks ... For sure there are two sides to the story and many Palestinians who think differently but Hamas in Gaza does not wish to lead a peaceful life side by side with its neighbors and that has consequences.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  And the solution is to indiscriminately bomb Gaza and then prevent it from rebuilding once the bombing is over? What did the children ever do to deserve watching their parents or friends or teachers die before their very eyes? Do you even realize how difficult it would be for a child to live life normally after their school is destroyed? How do you think such actions will affect young children? If you were one of the children who witnessed the horrors during aerial bombardment, would you ever forget?
  - YZF 10y ago
    I don't have a solution. There's plenty of trauma on both sides. I don't want to start dredging up all the horrible acts of violence experienced by Israelis. This sort of thinking is not productive. It's more useful to think given where we are right now what can be done... Part of the issue with rebuilding is that the raw materials get confiscated to support the war effort. The bombing is at least partly related to the reduction of other options. Israel used to have the option of driving tanks in to get at some particular problem but now Gaza is so heavily mined and full of anti-tank weapons that this can't be done. It also has a significant tunnel network which makes infantry less of an option. So if someone fires a rocket at you from Gaza you have fewer options. This is just a pure strategic calculation, not really political. Part of that calculation is also the moral side, the impact on the population and the public opinion side of bombing, hence the "knock on roof" protocols and various pre-warning to allow people to evict buildings that are targets to a bomb. But surely a lot of innocent people still do get hurt, this tends to happen in war... At any rate, this is very much not black and white. I think these days in Israel there is a lot less interest in peace mostly because getting burned with previous attempts has left deep scars in the general population. Anything that can be done to try and normalize things is welcome...

by Cyph0n 10y ago

ars 10y ago

> The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years You have got to be a troll, or did you forget that Hamas attacked Israel? I assume you think Israel should have just ignored that? > in the 21st century If the residents of Gaza actually joined the 21 century (for example in programs like what this submission is about) things might be quite different. > And the best way to do that You suggest something then.... What would you do with a population that just wants to kill you? Let them do it? > will love Israel forever. As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions. Seriously, do you not know even the slightest thing about the history of the area? > What a generous gesture! What other country leaves the communication of the opponent wide open during a war? Disrupting communication is like class 101 during warfare.

metaphorm 10y ago
> As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions not sure if this is a serious statement or not. your tone suggests serious but your words are not serious.
- ars 10y ago
  Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel. Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all. There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews. If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian not hate Jews, what makes you think there is any chance for a Palestinian not to? If you want to change this, first see if you have any success in Egypt.
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    You are overgeneralizing. Morocco and Tunisia (my home country) have some of the oldest Jewish populations in the world. As a Tunisian, I am extremely proud to have Jewish brothers and sisters who share my culture. My grandparents (from both sides) had very close friends who happened to be Jewish. Yes, they have decreased in number over the years, but I think Tunisia has done a good job protecting them. For example, right after the 2011 revolution, the interim government immediately reassured the Jewish community of Djerba that they would be protected. Also, El Ghriba synagogue in Djerba is one of the oldest in the world AFAIK. I haven't visited it yet though!
    - starik36 10y ago
      That maybe true. But nearly 99% of the Jews did leave Tunisia, according to the Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Tunisia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Mu.... In 1948, there were 105,000 Jews in Tunisia. Now there are 1,500. How do you explain that?
      - icebraining 10y ago
        With the creation of an affluent Jewish state that grants them automatic citizenship?
        berntb 10y ago
        You can't get 99% of a population to leave their homes where they grew up without hard push factors. Especially since their assets were confiscated...
      - Cyph0n 10y ago
        That was a dark time and was fueled by politics rather than the respect of the local population. A large percentage of the Jewish population left for France and Israel - I believe it was an almost 50/50 split between the two. More notably, this was a move by the Tunisian government, in "solidarity" with Palestine and in agreement with the rest of the Muslim world. This does not mean it was right of course. From my conversations with my paternal grandfather (b. 1927), Jews were treated like regular Tunisians.

YZF 10y ago

Gaza has chosen a confrontational attitude with their neighbors Egypt and Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they proceeded to promptly demolish the greenhouses that Israel left (and I believed donors actually purchased for them). Next was lynching their fellow Palestinians who happened to support Fatah rather than Hamas. Tunneling under the borders. Rocket attacks ... For sure there are two sides to the story and many Palestinians who think differently but Hamas in Gaza does not wish to lead a peaceful life side by side with its neighbors and that has consequences.

Cyph0n 10y ago
And the solution is to indiscriminately bomb Gaza and then prevent it from rebuilding once the bombing is over? What did the children ever do to deserve watching their parents or friends or teachers die before their very eyes? Do you even realize how difficult it would be for a child to live life normally after their school is destroyed? How do you think such actions will affect young children? If you were one of the children who witnessed the horrors during aerial bombardment, would you ever forget?
- YZF 10y ago
  I don't have a solution. There's plenty of trauma on both sides. I don't want to start dredging up all the horrible acts of violence experienced by Israelis. This sort of thinking is not productive. It's more useful to think given where we are right now what can be done... Part of the issue with rebuilding is that the raw materials get confiscated to support the war effort. The bombing is at least partly related to the reduction of other options. Israel used to have the option of driving tanks in to get at some particular problem but now Gaza is so heavily mined and full of anti-tank weapons that this can't be done. It also has a significant tunnel network which makes infantry less of an option. So if someone fires a rocket at you from Gaza you have fewer options. This is just a pure strategic calculation, not really political. Part of that calculation is also the moral side, the impact on the population and the public opinion side of bombing, hence the "knock on roof" protocols and various pre-warning to allow people to evict buildings that are targets to a bomb. But surely a lot of innocent people still do get hurt, this tends to happen in war... At any rate, this is very much not black and white. I think these days in Israel there is a lot less interest in peace mostly because getting burned with previous attempts has left deep scars in the general population. Anything that can be done to try and normalize things is welcome...