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is doing something like this considered a political statement against israel?

by oculusthrift 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
br0s 10y ago
On the contrary, such programs can shift focus from daily hardships and provide some hope for the future, which usually has a pacifying effect. Less extremism in Gaza is better for Israel.
justinzollars 10y ago
Maybe he's just trying to lift the people up. I don't see anything anti-Israel about that.
ars 10y ago
Not in the slightest. This kind of activity (economic activity) is probably the best way possible to deescalate the conflict. Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it. If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). And it's not for wiretapping since easy encryption makes that infeasible in bulk, plus the people you would want to tap are not the ordinary everyday Internet users. As additional evidence, increasing economic activity in the West Bank has been the backbone of Israel's attempt to keep things calm. The more countries depend on each other for trade the less conflict there is - this is a pattern worldwide.
- noobermin 10y ago
  >[...] they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it. I hate to bring politics in this, but any sort of aid given to the Gaza people can be construed by others as being political. In fact, people arguing for the Two-State Solution or the end of the expansion of settlements on the West Bank make the argument that such a development would be the best for Israel, and not against it. Since others (ie., the current right-wing gov't of Israel and its supporters) would interpret that as being against Israel, I can't imagine the same people would see economic aid to Gaza as being beneficial to them.
  - vinay427 10y ago
    I would suspect one reason is because fewer attacks from Gaza would mean less global sympathy for the cause which that group of right-wing Israelis support (a larger, rather than smaller, state of Israel).
- random314 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relief_and_Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relie... > During the 2007 trial the lawyers representing the foundation said that the Justice Department fabricated quotes and modified transcripts.[17] Critics faulted much of the evidence given during the trial. For example, over defense objection, the government called two anonymous witnesses: an Israeli Security Agency employee who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Avi" and an Israeli Defense Forces officer who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Major Lior." Even the defense lawyers were not permitted to know the names of these witnesses.[18] The government did not allege that HLF paid directly for suicide bombings, but instead that the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor. The prosecution said the committees were controlled by Hamas, and contributed to terrorism by helping Hamas spread its ideology and recruit supporters.[19] Some of these charitable committees were still receiving US funding through the USAID programme as late as 2006. None of the zakat committees was included on the Treasury Department list of designated terrorist organizations. Edward Abington, Jr., former U.S. consul general in Jerusalem, acted as a defence witness and testified that during his daily CIA briefings he had never been informed that Hamas controlled the Palestinian charity groups mentioned.
- huac 10y ago
  We shouldn't normalize the idea that it's acceptable for Israel to control all communication and trade of another state.
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    I love how the parent comment phrased that as if Israel was doing Gaza an immense favor by not cutting communication.
    - Papirola 10y ago
      why do you say that?
      - Cyph0n 10y ago
        Because you can't do a favor to a population you've imprisoned against its will? Plus, the fact that you control the communication channel for said population in the first place makes cutting it off a weak move.
  - gertef 10y ago
    Gaza is not a state, it has no stable government and peace treaty with its neighbors. There's no simplistic 1-line solution here. Take a look around the other Middle Eastern states that have lost their governments recently.
  - ars 10y ago
    During a war? I don't see why that's controversial. Israel could have easily cut the lines and used a jammer. They didn't.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  > Israel has no interest in Gaza The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) makes me think otherwise. > they just want them to stop trying to attack And the best way to do that is to carpet bomb the city every few years and deny it aid after doing so. I'm certain that the many children who lost their entire families will love Israel forever. > If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). What a generous gesture!
  - ars 10y ago
    > The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years You have got to be a troll, or did you forget that Hamas attacked Israel? I assume you think Israel should have just ignored that? > in the 21st century If the residents of Gaza actually joined the 21 century (for example in programs like what this submission is about) things might be quite different. > And the best way to do that You suggest something then.... What would you do with a population that just wants to kill you? Let them do it? > will love Israel forever. As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions. Seriously, do you not know even the slightest thing about the history of the area? > What a generous gesture! What other country leaves the communication of the opponent wide open during a war? Disrupting communication is like class 101 during warfare.
    - metaphorm 10y ago
      > As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions not sure if this is a serious statement or not. your tone suggests serious but your words are not serious.
      - ars 10y ago
        Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel. Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all. There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews. If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian not hate Jews, what makes you think there is any chance for a Palestinian not to? If you want to change this, first see if you have any success in Egypt.
- random314 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid > The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed in the raid. The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
  - kirillkh 10y ago
    Not sure what you're getting at, but here are the facts: 1) Background: Israel legitimately blockades Gaza due to acts of war by the local government (also known as the terrorist organization Hamas). 2) The Gaza flotilla was an attempt to breach the blockade by intruding into the zone controlled by Israeli naval forces in the area. 3) The Israeli forces intercepted the flotilla and boarded it; no weapons were used until provoked. 4) Immediately after boarding it, they were physically assaulted and returned fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0
- abalone 10y ago
  > Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack This is false and one-sided. Likud, the ruling party in Israel, has in its platform an explicit denial of the right for a Palestinian state to exist west of the Jordan river.[1] Everything you've heard about Palestinians/Hamas denying Israel the right to exist is actually true about Israel as well towards Palestine. (In fact Hamas has stated they would respect a two-state solution; not the case for Likud.) There are atrocities back and forth, for example "A month before [the murders of Israeli boys that set off the attack], two Palestinian boys were shot dead in the West Bank city of Ramallah."[2] However the scale of Israel's atrocities in military operations is massively larger, and the conditions they maintain in Gaza through sanctions and violence are unconscionable. One could argue the conditions are calculated to foment discontent and keep the conflict on the military field, because politically the settlements and occupation have no standing, as regularly condemned by the whole world in U.N. resolutions.[3] [1] http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestin... [2] http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25343-noam-chomsky-%7C-nightmare-in-gaza http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25343-noam-chomsky-%7C-ni... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_con...
  - berntb 10y ago
    Regarding the killed children -- wasn't the people doing a revenge murder of a Palestinian teenager sentenced to long jail sentences when they got caught? The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? It do seem like equivalent sides, as you claim... :-)
    - justin66 10y ago
      > The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? Judging from the public reaction in Israel to the manslaughter conviction of Elor Azaria (polling suggests something like 67% want him pardoned), some segment of the Israeli public isn't above sticking up for its murderers.
r00fus 10y ago
Only by those who are so polarized that they can't condone even mutually beneficial acts because "enemies".
sremani 10y ago
Gaza has population of about 1.8 million with a high literacy rate, 97%. It is a densely populated enclave. It might well be a political statement, but not necessarily a statement against Israel. I think its more like providing an economic life-line.
inglor 10y ago
As an Israeli, I find it extremely frustrating that I can't help. I joined their "supporters" group and wanted to Mentor but it didn't really work out. I totally get why they weren't really interested - but it's frustrating. Most Israelis think this is a great opportunity and support these sort of initiatives. They've worked well with Jordan in the past.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
metaphorm 10y ago
why are you even asking that question? is anything that doesn't treat Palestinians like vermin somehow a "political statement against Israel?"

is doing something like this considered a political statement against israel?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

br0s 10y ago

On the contrary, such programs can shift focus from daily hardships and provide some hope for the future, which usually has a pacifying effect. Less extremism in Gaza is better for Israel.

justinzollars 10y ago

Maybe he's just trying to lift the people up. I don't see anything anti-Israel about that.

ars 10y ago

Not in the slightest. This kind of activity (economic activity) is probably the best way possible to deescalate the conflict. Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it. If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). And it's not for wiretapping since easy encryption makes that infeasible in bulk, plus the people you would want to tap are not the ordinary everyday Internet users. As additional evidence, increasing economic activity in the West Bank has been the backbone of Israel's attempt to keep things calm. The more countries depend on each other for trade the less conflict there is - this is a pattern worldwide.

noobermin 10y ago
>[...] they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it. I hate to bring politics in this, but any sort of aid given to the Gaza people can be construed by others as being political. In fact, people arguing for the Two-State Solution or the end of the expansion of settlements on the West Bank make the argument that such a development would be the best for Israel, and not against it. Since others (ie., the current right-wing gov't of Israel and its supporters) would interpret that as being against Israel, I can't imagine the same people would see economic aid to Gaza as being beneficial to them.
- vinay427 10y ago
  I would suspect one reason is because fewer attacks from Gaza would mean less global sympathy for the cause which that group of right-wing Israelis support (a larger, rather than smaller, state of Israel).
random314 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relief_and_Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relie... > During the 2007 trial the lawyers representing the foundation said that the Justice Department fabricated quotes and modified transcripts.[17] Critics faulted much of the evidence given during the trial. For example, over defense objection, the government called two anonymous witnesses: an Israeli Security Agency employee who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Avi" and an Israeli Defense Forces officer who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Major Lior." Even the defense lawyers were not permitted to know the names of these witnesses.[18] The government did not allege that HLF paid directly for suicide bombings, but instead that the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor. The prosecution said the committees were controlled by Hamas, and contributed to terrorism by helping Hamas spread its ideology and recruit supporters.[19] Some of these charitable committees were still receiving US funding through the USAID programme as late as 2006. None of the zakat committees was included on the Treasury Department list of designated terrorist organizations. Edward Abington, Jr., former U.S. consul general in Jerusalem, acted as a defence witness and testified that during his daily CIA briefings he had never been informed that Hamas controlled the Palestinian charity groups mentioned.
huac 10y ago
We shouldn't normalize the idea that it's acceptable for Israel to control all communication and trade of another state.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  I love how the parent comment phrased that as if Israel was doing Gaza an immense favor by not cutting communication.
  - Papirola 10y ago
    why do you say that?
    - Cyph0n 10y ago
      Because you can't do a favor to a population you've imprisoned against its will? Plus, the fact that you control the communication channel for said population in the first place makes cutting it off a weak move.
- gertef 10y ago
  Gaza is not a state, it has no stable government and peace treaty with its neighbors. There's no simplistic 1-line solution here. Take a look around the other Middle Eastern states that have lost their governments recently.
- ars 10y ago
  During a war? I don't see why that's controversial. Israel could have easily cut the lines and used a jammer. They didn't.
Cyph0n 10y ago
> Israel has no interest in Gaza The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) makes me think otherwise. > they just want them to stop trying to attack And the best way to do that is to carpet bomb the city every few years and deny it aid after doing so. I'm certain that the many children who lost their entire families will love Israel forever. > If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). What a generous gesture!
- ars 10y ago
  > The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years You have got to be a troll, or did you forget that Hamas attacked Israel? I assume you think Israel should have just ignored that? > in the 21st century If the residents of Gaza actually joined the 21 century (for example in programs like what this submission is about) things might be quite different. > And the best way to do that You suggest something then.... What would you do with a population that just wants to kill you? Let them do it? > will love Israel forever. As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions. Seriously, do you not know even the slightest thing about the history of the area? > What a generous gesture! What other country leaves the communication of the opponent wide open during a war? Disrupting communication is like class 101 during warfare.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    > As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions not sure if this is a serious statement or not. your tone suggests serious but your words are not serious.
    - ars 10y ago
      Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel. Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all. There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews. If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian not hate Jews, what makes you think there is any chance for a Palestinian not to? If you want to change this, first see if you have any success in Egypt.
random314 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid > The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed in the raid. The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
- kirillkh 10y ago
  Not sure what you're getting at, but here are the facts: 1) Background: Israel legitimately blockades Gaza due to acts of war by the local government (also known as the terrorist organization Hamas). 2) The Gaza flotilla was an attempt to breach the blockade by intruding into the zone controlled by Israeli naval forces in the area. 3) The Israeli forces intercepted the flotilla and boarded it; no weapons were used until provoked. 4) Immediately after boarding it, they were physically assaulted and returned fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0
abalone 10y ago
> Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack This is false and one-sided. Likud, the ruling party in Israel, has in its platform an explicit denial of the right for a Palestinian state to exist west of the Jordan river.[1] Everything you've heard about Palestinians/Hamas denying Israel the right to exist is actually true about Israel as well towards Palestine. (In fact Hamas has stated they would respect a two-state solution; not the case for Likud.) There are atrocities back and forth, for example "A month before [the murders of Israeli boys that set off the attack], two Palestinian boys were shot dead in the West Bank city of Ramallah."[2] However the scale of Israel's atrocities in military operations is massively larger, and the conditions they maintain in Gaza through sanctions and violence are unconscionable. One could argue the conditions are calculated to foment discontent and keep the conflict on the military field, because politically the settlements and occupation have no standing, as regularly condemned by the whole world in U.N. resolutions.[3] [1] http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestin... [2] http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25343-noam-chomsky-%7C-nightmare-in-gaza http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25343-noam-chomsky-%7C-ni... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_con...
- berntb 10y ago
  Regarding the killed children -- wasn't the people doing a revenge murder of a Palestinian teenager sentenced to long jail sentences when they got caught? The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? It do seem like equivalent sides, as you claim... :-)
  - justin66 10y ago
    > The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? Judging from the public reaction in Israel to the manslaughter conviction of Elor Azaria (polling suggests something like 67% want him pardoned), some segment of the Israeli public isn't above sticking up for its murderers.

r00fus 10y ago

Only by those who are so polarized that they can't condone even mutually beneficial acts because "enemies".

sremani 10y ago

Gaza has population of about 1.8 million with a high literacy rate, 97%. It is a densely populated enclave. It might well be a political statement, but not necessarily a statement against Israel. I think its more like providing an economic life-line.

inglor 10y ago

As an Israeli, I find it extremely frustrating that I can't help. I joined their "supporters" group and wanted to Mentor but it didn't really work out. I totally get why they weren't really interested - but it's frustrating. Most Israelis think this is a great opportunity and support these sort of initiatives. They've worked well with Jordan in the past.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

metaphorm 10y ago

why are you even asking that question? is anything that doesn't treat Palestinians like vermin somehow a "political statement against Israel?"