5 ms·

> Europe is full of such cities and they're loved for it. Sure, Florence is beautiful and lovable, but I personally like the possibility to also drive to a com

by pif 10y ago

> Europe is full of such cities and they're loved for it. Sure, Florence is beautiful and lovable, but I personally like the possibility to also drive to a commercial center, buy what I need for a few days, drive back home and park my car in a closed garage conveniently connected to my apartment via a lift, or my house via a door.

mercer 10y ago
Over here in Holland we use bikes for all of that. It gets you some free exercise and it's less polluting.
- secabeen 10y ago
  One helpful factor for bicycling in Holland is the flatness. It's relatively easy to get to work or shopping without having to climb a big hill. Other parts of the world aren't so blessed, and people who do ride to work feel like they have to shower before the work day, which reduces some people's desire to do so.
  - hobarrera 10y ago
    The weather also surely helps. I live in a moderately warm city (Buenos Aires), and temperatures go up to 30º or even almost 40º in the summer, and biking is a trip to hell and back. I can't even imagine people closer to tropical climates trying to ride bikes anytime except winter.
- a3n 10y ago
  What do people do who can't bike?
  - mamurphy 10y ago
    I presume that they learn how to bike. If you meant to ask "What about people that physically can't ever bike (but can drive)?" What percentage of the population, honestly, do you think that is? Out of shape people can lose weight and eventually learn to bike. Very few people can-drive-but-not-bike, and surely exceptions can be made for them.
    - mercer 10y ago
      Funny coincidence: just yesterday I helped out a (to all appearances) rather old man who had dropped his keys and had trouble leaning down to pick them up. His hands were shaking as I handed him the keys, and he gave off a very frail impression. He was cycling when he dropped his keys. I remember being impressed by the fact that while this guy had so much trouble bending down, he was riding a (regular) bike. I've also seen 'seriously' pregnant women bike around, men/women with a kid strapped to the front and back of the bike, with sometimes a third kid in a kart behind the bike. I also regularly see groups of elderly people on sports bikes (often with some electrical help though), as well as really young children. There are plenty of people who really can't ride bikes, but probably far fewer than people from non-biking places assume.
      - a3n 10y ago
        No doubt. I wouldn't take away anyone's bike (unless I was their child or spouse, maybe), but I'd worry about old "frail" people on bikes. Their strength and flexibility declines (in general with individual exceptions), and a fall can debilitate or kill old people. Glad to see that three-wheelers are an option.
  - vanderZwan 10y ago
    First, we have a law called Wet Maatschappelijke Ondersteuning[0] (and a 2015 update to it), which means "law for societal support", specifically aimed at helping everyone partake in society. Part of that is monetary support to buy, for example, a mobility scooter[1] if you have a disability that limits you in your freedom of movement otherwise. Many elderly use this. Also gaining in popularity recently is the so-called "Duofiets", which is a two-person side-by-side tricycle[2], which lets people without a disability help out. Here's a video of a project that combines student housing with elderly care[3] (also an interesting project in itself) that shows off the bike halfway. My grandma was taken on daytrips with such a bike in the last years of her life, and it really brightened her day. [0] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/zorg-en-ondersteuning-thuis/inhoud/wmo-2015 https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/zorg-en-ondersteuni... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_scooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_scooter [2] http://www.koekange.info/2015/03/fietsen-op-duofiets/ http://www.koekange.info/2015/03/fietsen-op-duofiets/ [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRtaulQsZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRtaulQsZU
    - a3n 10y ago
      That's the answer I was kind of expecting, thanks.
    - jdietrich 10y ago
      Cyclists never retire, they just buy a tricycle. Hase Bikes in Germany build a wonderful range of adapted bicycles and tricycles that can accommodate almost any disability. If you're capable of moving your arms or legs, there's a cycle that will work for you. http://hasebikes.com/ http://hasebikes.com/
jimktrains2 10y ago
> Sure, Florence is beautiful and lovable, but I personally like the possibility to also drive to a commercial center, buy what I need for a few days, drive back home and park my car in a closed garage conveniently connected to my apartment via a lift, or my house via a door. Why? That sounds like hell. If I had to drive everywhere for everything I'd go mad.
- detaro 10y ago
  How do you get from "also have the option to" to "had to drive everywhere"? I don't own a car, but I can completely understand why having the option to take one for occasional larger shopping trips is nice. Friends and family with cars do that, but they still make 97% of their trips without the car.
  - avar 10y ago
    Because there's no such thing as just giving you the option to use your car. Once that option exists people will use cars, more car use requires bigger roads, more spaced out shops due to parking, and eventually gigantic junctions and highways. Soon enough what used to be a 500 meter walk turns into walking 2 kilometers because of all the car-related infrastructure in the way, which then becomes a self-reinforcing feedback loop as more people own cars, so they're willing to travel longer distances, reducing the business & zoning incentive to make things walkable.
    - aianus 10y ago
      I don't think this works in places with cold weather. A 5 km drive in the winter is so much more pleasant than a 200m walk.
      - avar 10y ago
        Just buy adequate winter clothes, it's certainly much cheaper than a car. If scientists can stroll around Antarctica in winter gear for hours on end so can you in whatever city you live in.
vanderZwan 10y ago
To add to mercer's comment, an article and video about the city of Groningen: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen... https://vimeo.com/76207227 https://vimeo.com/76207227 Mind you, whether or not Groningen is the most bike-friendly city in the Netherlands is largely irrelevant, all of our cities are so even if it was it's not exceptional. It's kind of comparable to how we dominate in speed-skating[0] - from the outsider's point of view it's irrelevant who is the best. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_at_the_2014_Winter...

by pif 10y ago

mercer 10y ago

Over here in Holland we use bikes for all of that. It gets you some free exercise and it's less polluting.

secabeen 10y ago
One helpful factor for bicycling in Holland is the flatness. It's relatively easy to get to work or shopping without having to climb a big hill. Other parts of the world aren't so blessed, and people who do ride to work feel like they have to shower before the work day, which reduces some people's desire to do so.
- hobarrera 10y ago
  The weather also surely helps. I live in a moderately warm city (Buenos Aires), and temperatures go up to 30º or even almost 40º in the summer, and biking is a trip to hell and back. I can't even imagine people closer to tropical climates trying to ride bikes anytime except winter.
a3n 10y ago
What do people do who can't bike?
- mamurphy 10y ago
  I presume that they learn how to bike. If you meant to ask "What about people that physically can't ever bike (but can drive)?" What percentage of the population, honestly, do you think that is? Out of shape people can lose weight and eventually learn to bike. Very few people can-drive-but-not-bike, and surely exceptions can be made for them.
  - mercer 10y ago
    Funny coincidence: just yesterday I helped out a (to all appearances) rather old man who had dropped his keys and had trouble leaning down to pick them up. His hands were shaking as I handed him the keys, and he gave off a very frail impression. He was cycling when he dropped his keys. I remember being impressed by the fact that while this guy had so much trouble bending down, he was riding a (regular) bike. I've also seen 'seriously' pregnant women bike around, men/women with a kid strapped to the front and back of the bike, with sometimes a third kid in a kart behind the bike. I also regularly see groups of elderly people on sports bikes (often with some electrical help though), as well as really young children. There are plenty of people who really can't ride bikes, but probably far fewer than people from non-biking places assume.
    - a3n 10y ago
      No doubt. I wouldn't take away anyone's bike (unless I was their child or spouse, maybe), but I'd worry about old "frail" people on bikes. Their strength and flexibility declines (in general with individual exceptions), and a fall can debilitate or kill old people. Glad to see that three-wheelers are an option.
- vanderZwan 10y ago
  First, we have a law called Wet Maatschappelijke Ondersteuning[0] (and a 2015 update to it), which means "law for societal support", specifically aimed at helping everyone partake in society. Part of that is monetary support to buy, for example, a mobility scooter[1] if you have a disability that limits you in your freedom of movement otherwise. Many elderly use this. Also gaining in popularity recently is the so-called "Duofiets", which is a two-person side-by-side tricycle[2], which lets people without a disability help out. Here's a video of a project that combines student housing with elderly care[3] (also an interesting project in itself) that shows off the bike halfway. My grandma was taken on daytrips with such a bike in the last years of her life, and it really brightened her day. [0] https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/zorg-en-ondersteuning-thuis/inhoud/wmo-2015 https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/zorg-en-ondersteuni... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_scooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_scooter [2] http://www.koekange.info/2015/03/fietsen-op-duofiets/ http://www.koekange.info/2015/03/fietsen-op-duofiets/ [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRtaulQsZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRtaulQsZU
  - a3n 10y ago
    That's the answer I was kind of expecting, thanks.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    Cyclists never retire, they just buy a tricycle. Hase Bikes in Germany build a wonderful range of adapted bicycles and tricycles that can accommodate almost any disability. If you're capable of moving your arms or legs, there's a cycle that will work for you. http://hasebikes.com/ http://hasebikes.com/

jimktrains2 10y ago

> Sure, Florence is beautiful and lovable, but I personally like the possibility to also drive to a commercial center, buy what I need for a few days, drive back home and park my car in a closed garage conveniently connected to my apartment via a lift, or my house via a door. Why? That sounds like hell. If I had to drive everywhere for everything I'd go mad.

detaro 10y ago
How do you get from "also have the option to" to "had to drive everywhere"? I don't own a car, but I can completely understand why having the option to take one for occasional larger shopping trips is nice. Friends and family with cars do that, but they still make 97% of their trips without the car.
- avar 10y ago
  Because there's no such thing as just giving you the option to use your car. Once that option exists people will use cars, more car use requires bigger roads, more spaced out shops due to parking, and eventually gigantic junctions and highways. Soon enough what used to be a 500 meter walk turns into walking 2 kilometers because of all the car-related infrastructure in the way, which then becomes a self-reinforcing feedback loop as more people own cars, so they're willing to travel longer distances, reducing the business & zoning incentive to make things walkable.
  - aianus 10y ago
    I don't think this works in places with cold weather. A 5 km drive in the winter is so much more pleasant than a 200m walk.
    - avar 10y ago
      Just buy adequate winter clothes, it's certainly much cheaper than a car. If scientists can stroll around Antarctica in winter gear for hours on end so can you in whatever city you live in.

vanderZwan 10y ago

To add to mercer's comment, an article and video about the city of Groningen: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen... https://vimeo.com/76207227 https://vimeo.com/76207227 Mind you, whether or not Groningen is the most bike-friendly city in the Netherlands is largely irrelevant, all of our cities are so even if it was it's not exceptional. It's kind of comparable to how we dominate in speed-skating[0] - from the outsider's point of view it's irrelevant who is the best. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_at_the_2014_Winter...