6 ms·

i think the auto is a red herring. i think what it is is that these cities have a level of lifestyle that happened to be commiserate with the revenue that they

by princeb 10y ago

i think the auto is a red herring. i think what it is is that these cities have a level of lifestyle that happened to be commiserate with the revenue that they can generate, because the more expensive infrastructure- fibre, 4g, or undergrounds, tram lines, auto traffic control, or even a large network of roads, have not or cannot be built in. when i travel to the cities in the developing countries in asia, and speak to the locals, there's always a sense that they look forward to building their city into something like sydney or singapore. the people elect mayors and governors that promise development towards that goal. most of time, it doesn't go anywhere. what i thought, but did not say, is that these smaller cities don't generate the same kind of revenue that pays for the kind of infrastructure, modern buildings, and diversity in imports that you see in the major cities. To try and pursue that without finding a way to increase the value and productivity of their economy is going to get you in the kind of trouble that you see a lot of these bankrupt towns in the US in.

panglott 10y ago
The auto is at the center of what's unique about American towns. The chart in the article essentially says that the urban core generates surplus revenue that is used to subsidize low-productivity outlying areas. The car is at the heart of why the outlying areas are so large and thus need so many direct and indirect subsidies, and a direct source of the subsidies and costs. See something like "The High Cost of Free Parking" The exurban paradigm that is now standard even in very small towns is just incredibly costly, miles of pavement, huge parking lots that cause stormwater problems, for a very low density of tax base.
- pif 10y ago
  > the urban core generates surplus revenue that is used to subsidize low-productivity outlying areas What's so surprising about it? You work (and produce) in the overcrowded center and then go back to a nice suburb for the evening.
  - panglott 10y ago
    No one said it was surprising, but the article's argument is that the subsidies to the outlying suburbs are so large that they are overwhelming the tax revenue generated by the core. People find different things pleasing, and some people enjoy commuting so they can live quite far from their job, friends, and basic services. Others prefer to live closer to these things, close enough to walk, cycle, or take transit. Based on prices, it's clear that in many metro areas, there's a great demand for urban-style living that is going unfulfilled, mostly do to zoning restrictions.
  - II2II 10y ago
    It may not be surprising, but many find it disagreeable. Residents of those overcrowded centres are rarely enthusiastic about subsidising the suburbs. Businesses often find it difficult to exist in the centre, both due to taxation (again, to subsidise the suburbs) and the difficulty in convincing car-centric suburbanites to drive downtown. Those subsidies can be quite significant, ranging from roads and poorly utilized transit routes to developing land and services that will be under utilized (e.g. parks and recreation centres).
cptskippy 10y ago
> their economy is going to get you in the kind of trouble that you see a lot of these bankrupt towns in the US in. I think you're discounting the affect that big box retailers have had on rural and small towns in the US. They're often given tax brakes and other incentives to build and then they park themselves right outside city/town limits to avoid any sales or property taxes. They then proceed to drive every small business in the town out of business. As shops close down, fewer people go into town which the impacts other shops and gradually the entire town shuts down. To add to it, the big box retailers will often have leased space in the front of their stores where small businesses that they don't directly compete with can take up space. These businesses were probably the remnants of what remained in town but moved to where the people are. You can see this in many towns if you drive across the Midwest. You'll see a "Welcome to <town>" sign, then drive through an abandoned town, then you'll see a "Thanks for visiting <town>" and then a massive super store with a filled parking lot.
- tropo 10y ago
  Big box retailers sell things in big boxes. Without the giant parking lot, it isn't viable to sell most of the products. Delivery from a separate warehouse would be required. Buyers aren't going to toss a refrigerator in a backpack and then hop on a bicycle! Putting a refrigerator in a minivan is reasonable. The same goes for large TVs, washing machines, clothes dryers, mattresses, sofas, desks, chairs, whiteboards, canoes, etc. The old-style downtown shop simply can't handle large products in a reasonable way. Since it can't, people get used to shopping at places that can handle everything.
  - mwarkentin 10y ago
    I always thought "big box" referred to the size of the store itself, not the items it sells. Wikipedia seems to agree with me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store
  - gizmo 10y ago
    And so people end up with a car three sizes too large just because so they can go to a big box retailer twice a year. How many refrigerators does a family really need? Renting a van or getting the big box item delivered is so much more convenient. Commuting to work and running errands in a minivan is just so wasteful.

by princeb 10y ago

panglott 10y ago

The auto is at the center of what's unique about American towns. The chart in the article essentially says that the urban core generates surplus revenue that is used to subsidize low-productivity outlying areas. The car is at the heart of why the outlying areas are so large and thus need so many direct and indirect subsidies, and a direct source of the subsidies and costs. See something like "The High Cost of Free Parking" The exurban paradigm that is now standard even in very small towns is just incredibly costly, miles of pavement, huge parking lots that cause stormwater problems, for a very low density of tax base.

pif 10y ago
> the urban core generates surplus revenue that is used to subsidize low-productivity outlying areas What's so surprising about it? You work (and produce) in the overcrowded center and then go back to a nice suburb for the evening.
- panglott 10y ago
  No one said it was surprising, but the article's argument is that the subsidies to the outlying suburbs are so large that they are overwhelming the tax revenue generated by the core. People find different things pleasing, and some people enjoy commuting so they can live quite far from their job, friends, and basic services. Others prefer to live closer to these things, close enough to walk, cycle, or take transit. Based on prices, it's clear that in many metro areas, there's a great demand for urban-style living that is going unfulfilled, mostly do to zoning restrictions.
- II2II 10y ago
  It may not be surprising, but many find it disagreeable. Residents of those overcrowded centres are rarely enthusiastic about subsidising the suburbs. Businesses often find it difficult to exist in the centre, both due to taxation (again, to subsidise the suburbs) and the difficulty in convincing car-centric suburbanites to drive downtown. Those subsidies can be quite significant, ranging from roads and poorly utilized transit routes to developing land and services that will be under utilized (e.g. parks and recreation centres).

cptskippy 10y ago

> their economy is going to get you in the kind of trouble that you see a lot of these bankrupt towns in the US in. I think you're discounting the affect that big box retailers have had on rural and small towns in the US. They're often given tax brakes and other incentives to build and then they park themselves right outside city/town limits to avoid any sales or property taxes. They then proceed to drive every small business in the town out of business. As shops close down, fewer people go into town which the impacts other shops and gradually the entire town shuts down. To add to it, the big box retailers will often have leased space in the front of their stores where small businesses that they don't directly compete with can take up space. These businesses were probably the remnants of what remained in town but moved to where the people are. You can see this in many towns if you drive across the Midwest. You'll see a "Welcome to <town>" sign, then drive through an abandoned town, then you'll see a "Thanks for visiting <town>" and then a massive super store with a filled parking lot.

tropo 10y ago
Big box retailers sell things in big boxes. Without the giant parking lot, it isn't viable to sell most of the products. Delivery from a separate warehouse would be required. Buyers aren't going to toss a refrigerator in a backpack and then hop on a bicycle! Putting a refrigerator in a minivan is reasonable. The same goes for large TVs, washing machines, clothes dryers, mattresses, sofas, desks, chairs, whiteboards, canoes, etc. The old-style downtown shop simply can't handle large products in a reasonable way. Since it can't, people get used to shopping at places that can handle everything.
- mwarkentin 10y ago
  I always thought "big box" referred to the size of the store itself, not the items it sells. Wikipedia seems to agree with me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big-box_store
- gizmo 10y ago
  And so people end up with a car three sizes too large just because so they can go to a big box retailer twice a year. How many refrigerators does a family really need? Renting a van or getting the big box item delivered is so much more convenient. Commuting to work and running errands in a minivan is just so wasteful.