5 ms·

Well, they got walkability mostly right, but living in those panel boxes was still not great. I'd never want to go back to that... Personally, I find the 5-8 s

Well, they got walkability mostly right, but living in those panel boxes was still not great. I'd never want to go back to that... Personally, I find the 5-8 story setups of cities like Paris, Barcelona or Rome much more appealing - enough density to make all the good things like walkability and local cafes happen, but no blocked out sun (Like in NYC) or need to climb to 20th floor when the elevator gives out for the nth time.

cameldrv 10y ago
Having lived in Berlin, which is mostly 5-6 story buildings, I think there's a real sweet spot at this height, perhaps a bit higher if people want larger apartments. This puts enough people in a small area that having good transit, including subways, makes economic sense, and all of the daily essentials are within a block or two. Going higher means you need bigger spacing between buildings in order for the lower floors to get any sunlight, especially in the winter. Bigger spacing between buildings creates a sense of disconnectednes between buildings. At 5-6 stories, you do need fairly wide streets. If you do them like Berlin, you allocate a lot of that width to sidewalks, which are then wide enough for the retail to spill out onto the streets with outdoor displays and sidewalk seating for cafes and bars. It also gives you plenty of room on the sidewalk for other infrastructure like subway stops with adequate width stairwells, bus stops, bike sharing stations, etc. It's also fairly easy to work on underground infrastructure without huge disruption because it runs near the street but under the sidewalk, so normally working on it just means closing off part of the sidewalk. The streets aren't so wide though that they create this cut-off feeling, everything feels continuous.
- porker 10y ago
  How was the soundproofing in these 5-6 story buildings? I've lived in flats in the UK and had endless problems, from people vacuuming at 6am on wooden floors above my bedroom to sleepless nights from parties, to hearing TV and conversations. I like the idea of 5-6 story buildings and know we need higher density housing, but past experiences make we want to live in a 2-story (semi-)detached house with enough garden to keep the neighbours at a distance.
  - stuaxo 10y ago
    Re flats in the UK, if you want soundproofing then often new builds are way better, since the floors are concrete.
  - happosai 10y ago
    Where I've lived, the flats made in 60s to 90s had rather varying soundproofing. Worst case you could hear neighbors chatting and their babies crying, best only bigger noise. But apartments made since 2000 have had excellent sound-proofing. Absolutely silent from neighbors. Only reason not to live in a new flat with walking distance from services is if you really like gardening.
  - cameldrv 10y ago
    Well, Germans have a lot of rules about when you're allowed to make noise, and they have a reputation for involving the authorities more than in other places. Having lived in several apartments in different parts of the city, noise from neighbors was rarely a problem, but street noise sometimes was in the summer when the windows were open.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    I live in a GDR-era 5-story apartment block (a model WBS-70/5, to be exact). The soundproofing is quite good; I don't feel disturbed by the neighbors in the surrounding apartments at all. My only gripe is that the door to the entry door is a bit thin. On weekends, when I like to stay in bed a bit longer, I frequently hear people passing by on the stairs.
  - hx87 10y ago
    If you put enough mineral wood in the walls, floors, and ceilings, install triple-pane casement windows (seriously, sash windows are shit), and mount all the plasterboard on stand-offs instead of directly on surfaces, sound shouldn't ever be a problem.
- usrusr 10y ago
  Unfortunately, nothing new is built that way, that art seems to have been lost at some point during world war one. We can't even blame the car for that, as true mass motorization happened much later. Early modern housing schemes (of which Berlin has quite a few really interesting examples, e.g. the Siemensstadt developments to the north of Siemensdamm subway stop) were a great response to how those traditional patterns sufferered from overcrowding back when they supported much higher density than today. Unfortunately, that style developed into something very ugly when it was ruthlessly scaled vertically a few decades later.
cperciva 10y ago
Ick. In Vancouver we have some areas which are basically paved with 5-10 floor buildings -- there's no space between adjacent buildings, and only a narrow sidewalk separating buildings from vehicular traffic. We also have areas with 30-40 floor towers separated by parks and playgrounds, with plenty of trees and wide sidewalks. The population density is basically identical between these areas, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in a low-rise area. (Incidentally, the reason we have low-rise areas is because the city has an absurdly long list of "sight cones" to protect views of the local mountains.)
- sologoub 10y ago
  Seems like a problem with street design. As someone noted above, you do need wider streets with wide side walks for this type of construction to be livible. If you cluster too tightly, window to window, it definitely degrades the setup.
  - cperciva 10y ago
    It's not just a matter of the streets; it's also the space within each block. Having towers makes it possible to have open spaces as well without decreasing the density.
wott 10y ago
You don't need such density to have walkability to shops and cafés. Any 2-3 story small town from 2000-4000 to 30000-40000 inhabitants can provide it. That's not at all in the league of the 1-3 millions inhabitants cities you quoted. Paris is a nightmare to live in and people want to flea from it. There used to be close to 3 millions inhabitants and it is now down to slightly over 2 millions.
dionidium 10y ago
New York City -- even in Manhattan -- still has neighborhoods like you describe: https://goo.gl/maps/zQTS15XWCh92 https://goo.gl/maps/zQTS15XWCh92

cameldrv 10y ago

Having lived in Berlin, which is mostly 5-6 story buildings, I think there's a real sweet spot at this height, perhaps a bit higher if people want larger apartments. This puts enough people in a small area that having good transit, including subways, makes economic sense, and all of the daily essentials are within a block or two. Going higher means you need bigger spacing between buildings in order for the lower floors to get any sunlight, especially in the winter. Bigger spacing between buildings creates a sense of disconnectednes between buildings. At 5-6 stories, you do need fairly wide streets. If you do them like Berlin, you allocate a lot of that width to sidewalks, which are then wide enough for the retail to spill out onto the streets with outdoor displays and sidewalk seating for cafes and bars. It also gives you plenty of room on the sidewalk for other infrastructure like subway stops with adequate width stairwells, bus stops, bike sharing stations, etc. It's also fairly easy to work on underground infrastructure without huge disruption because it runs near the street but under the sidewalk, so normally working on it just means closing off part of the sidewalk. The streets aren't so wide though that they create this cut-off feeling, everything feels continuous.

porker 10y ago
How was the soundproofing in these 5-6 story buildings? I've lived in flats in the UK and had endless problems, from people vacuuming at 6am on wooden floors above my bedroom to sleepless nights from parties, to hearing TV and conversations. I like the idea of 5-6 story buildings and know we need higher density housing, but past experiences make we want to live in a 2-story (semi-)detached house with enough garden to keep the neighbours at a distance.
- stuaxo 10y ago
  Re flats in the UK, if you want soundproofing then often new builds are way better, since the floors are concrete.
- happosai 10y ago
  Where I've lived, the flats made in 60s to 90s had rather varying soundproofing. Worst case you could hear neighbors chatting and their babies crying, best only bigger noise. But apartments made since 2000 have had excellent sound-proofing. Absolutely silent from neighbors. Only reason not to live in a new flat with walking distance from services is if you really like gardening.
- cameldrv 10y ago
  Well, Germans have a lot of rules about when you're allowed to make noise, and they have a reputation for involving the authorities more than in other places. Having lived in several apartments in different parts of the city, noise from neighbors was rarely a problem, but street noise sometimes was in the summer when the windows were open.
- majewsky 10y ago
  I live in a GDR-era 5-story apartment block (a model WBS-70/5, to be exact). The soundproofing is quite good; I don't feel disturbed by the neighbors in the surrounding apartments at all. My only gripe is that the door to the entry door is a bit thin. On weekends, when I like to stay in bed a bit longer, I frequently hear people passing by on the stairs.
- hx87 10y ago
  If you put enough mineral wood in the walls, floors, and ceilings, install triple-pane casement windows (seriously, sash windows are shit), and mount all the plasterboard on stand-offs instead of directly on surfaces, sound shouldn't ever be a problem.
usrusr 10y ago
Unfortunately, nothing new is built that way, that art seems to have been lost at some point during world war one. We can't even blame the car for that, as true mass motorization happened much later. Early modern housing schemes (of which Berlin has quite a few really interesting examples, e.g. the Siemensstadt developments to the north of Siemensdamm subway stop) were a great response to how those traditional patterns sufferered from overcrowding back when they supported much higher density than today. Unfortunately, that style developed into something very ugly when it was ruthlessly scaled vertically a few decades later.

cperciva 10y ago

Ick. In Vancouver we have some areas which are basically paved with 5-10 floor buildings -- there's no space between adjacent buildings, and only a narrow sidewalk separating buildings from vehicular traffic. We also have areas with 30-40 floor towers separated by parks and playgrounds, with plenty of trees and wide sidewalks. The population density is basically identical between these areas, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in a low-rise area. (Incidentally, the reason we have low-rise areas is because the city has an absurdly long list of "sight cones" to protect views of the local mountains.)

sologoub 10y ago
Seems like a problem with street design. As someone noted above, you do need wider streets with wide side walks for this type of construction to be livible. If you cluster too tightly, window to window, it definitely degrades the setup.
- cperciva 10y ago
  It's not just a matter of the streets; it's also the space within each block. Having towers makes it possible to have open spaces as well without decreasing the density.

wott 10y ago

You don't need such density to have walkability to shops and cafés. Any 2-3 story small town from 2000-4000 to 30000-40000 inhabitants can provide it. That's not at all in the league of the 1-3 millions inhabitants cities you quoted. Paris is a nightmare to live in and people want to flea from it. There used to be close to 3 millions inhabitants and it is now down to slightly over 2 millions.

dionidium 10y ago

New York City -- even in Manhattan -- still has neighborhoods like you describe: https://goo.gl/maps/zQTS15XWCh92 https://goo.gl/maps/zQTS15XWCh92