6 ms·

Swift, XCode, and Apple software in general don't scream reliability to me. No doubt Lattner is a smart guy, but I'd be more comfortable with a smart guy from N

by freyir 10y ago

Swift, XCode, and Apple software in general don't scream reliability to me. No doubt Lattner is a smart guy, but I'd be more comfortable with a smart guy from NASA or somewhere similar with experience developing survival-critical software systems.

devsquid 10y ago
I know the first thing I thought about was does this mean Tesla's going to start writing its software in Swift. If so they are fucked :P. (BTW I write non-critical consumer software in Swift as my day job)
- webjprgm 10y ago
  Swift has its problems but keeps getting better. I only get to use it for my at-home projects, since at work the portion of the codebase that is for iOS is Objective-C with no plans to switch any time soon. Old Obj-C too, and started by people used to programming in VB on MS platforms. So count your blessings.
  - devsquid 10y ago
    I find Swift to be getting worse each year. While sure i'm blessed that I don't have to write applications in assemble, I have grown jaded towards Swift. If it wasn't because I am an iOS developer, I would happily not use the language. I have been slowly positioning myself away from doing iOS development. I feel like a massive corporation like Apple can provide better tools to write apps for their walled garden than what they are providing me.
    - 72deluxe 10y ago
      What would you recommend instead? C#? C++? C++ has become incredibly great recently after languishing in the C++2003 period for too long.
      - nicky0 10y ago
        SPARK ADA of course.
shiny 10y ago
Pretty much none of Apple's current software is written in Swift though, from what I can tell.
- chris_7 10y ago
  Including the Swift compiler itself - though at least that might prevent the segfaults.
- devsquid 10y ago
  If I remember right, its just the calculator app. Lol....
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    The dock and launchd were rewritten in Swift for Sierra. There is a WWDC session talking about it.
    - devsquid 10y ago
      Well that doesn't bode well ;) Sierra's dock is sooo buggy. I have to restart my machine numerous times a day because the dock stops working, literally doesn't work lol. I'm sure theres a way to restart just the dock app, but eh i've been quite busy. Sierra has been one of the buggiest version of Mac I can remember using. I would surprised if they actually did tho. I know someone did some static analysis of the apps for mac and iOS and found Swift was barely used at all.
      - amiga-workbench 10y ago
        The dock is a separate process, as is Finder, you can just kill them. I have to stomp on coreaudiod a few times a month because my USB DAC stops responding.
- dwaite 10y ago
  Actually a fair bit is in Sierra. Apple decided apparently not to invest resources in targeting 32-bit platform support, so they have had to hold off shipping software relying on it until the platforms drop 32-bit support. Sierra did that last year, and I'd put $5 on iOS 11 doing that as well.
noobermin 10y ago
This is my feeling too. Yes, I'm a scientist, so I'm from that side of the pond, but does it make sense to hire a developer type for engineering where lives could be at stake? Not that dev'ing should rise to that level, but it isn't the typical level most developers work at. Also, if he is more of a "software correctness and reliability" guy as abalone says he is, then yes, that is the right direction.
ryanmarsh 10y ago
NASA has a culture of safety and redundancy ad nauseam because people are indoctrinated into it, not because their hires have an innate proclivity for it. It is not fair to judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety based upon Xcode and Swift. One of these predates him, the other is the result of his decisions (no doubt) but also countless decisions of others, including those above his pay grade at Apple. Xcode is basically the evolution of something designed for NEXT. Swift is a solution to various problems in application development. I'm not aware if he (et.al.) had real time processing or safety critical devices in mind with 3.0.2.
- freyir 10y ago
  > NASA has a culture of safety and redundancy ad nauseam because people are indoctrinated I'm not claiming Lattner is missing some innate ability -- it just appears they're putting someone in charge who has never been exposed to this mindset. Maybe they have a culture or other leaders already in place who can foster this within the team. > It is not fair to judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety based upon Xcode and Swift. To be fair, we cannot judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety at all, because he has no publicly-known experience with safety-critical systems. Perhaps he has relevant experience that's not public. And if it turns out he has no relevant experience, I'm not saying he can't learn. It's just strange for Tesla to put someone in charge who will be learning on the job.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Probably not, but the WWDC session about real time audio used Swift on their presentation. http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2016/507n0zrhzxdzmg20zcl/507/507_delivering_an_exceptional_audio_experience.pdf http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2016/507n0zrhzxdzm...
  - ryanmarsh 10y ago
    "Real-time" audio doesn't involve human critical systems.
    - pjmlp 10y ago

by freyir 10y ago

devsquid 10y ago

I know the first thing I thought about was does this mean Tesla's going to start writing its software in Swift. If so they are fucked :P. (BTW I write non-critical consumer software in Swift as my day job)

webjprgm 10y ago
Swift has its problems but keeps getting better. I only get to use it for my at-home projects, since at work the portion of the codebase that is for iOS is Objective-C with no plans to switch any time soon. Old Obj-C too, and started by people used to programming in VB on MS platforms. So count your blessings.
- devsquid 10y ago
  I find Swift to be getting worse each year. While sure i'm blessed that I don't have to write applications in assemble, I have grown jaded towards Swift. If it wasn't because I am an iOS developer, I would happily not use the language. I have been slowly positioning myself away from doing iOS development. I feel like a massive corporation like Apple can provide better tools to write apps for their walled garden than what they are providing me.
  - 72deluxe 10y ago
    What would you recommend instead? C#? C++? C++ has become incredibly great recently after languishing in the C++2003 period for too long.
    - nicky0 10y ago
      SPARK ADA of course.

shiny 10y ago

Pretty much none of Apple's current software is written in Swift though, from what I can tell.

chris_7 10y ago
Including the Swift compiler itself - though at least that might prevent the segfaults.
devsquid 10y ago
If I remember right, its just the calculator app. Lol....
- pjmlp 10y ago
  The dock and launchd were rewritten in Swift for Sierra. There is a WWDC session talking about it.
  - devsquid 10y ago
    Well that doesn't bode well ;) Sierra's dock is sooo buggy. I have to restart my machine numerous times a day because the dock stops working, literally doesn't work lol. I'm sure theres a way to restart just the dock app, but eh i've been quite busy. Sierra has been one of the buggiest version of Mac I can remember using. I would surprised if they actually did tho. I know someone did some static analysis of the apps for mac and iOS and found Swift was barely used at all.
    - amiga-workbench 10y ago
      The dock is a separate process, as is Finder, you can just kill them. I have to stomp on coreaudiod a few times a month because my USB DAC stops responding.
dwaite 10y ago
Actually a fair bit is in Sierra. Apple decided apparently not to invest resources in targeting 32-bit platform support, so they have had to hold off shipping software relying on it until the platforms drop 32-bit support. Sierra did that last year, and I'd put $5 on iOS 11 doing that as well.

noobermin 10y ago

This is my feeling too. Yes, I'm a scientist, so I'm from that side of the pond, but does it make sense to hire a developer type for engineering where lives could be at stake? Not that dev'ing should rise to that level, but it isn't the typical level most developers work at. Also, if he is more of a "software correctness and reliability" guy as abalone says he is, then yes, that is the right direction.

ryanmarsh 10y ago

NASA has a culture of safety and redundancy ad nauseam because people are indoctrinated into it, not because their hires have an innate proclivity for it. It is not fair to judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety based upon Xcode and Swift. One of these predates him, the other is the result of his decisions (no doubt) but also countless decisions of others, including those above his pay grade at Apple. Xcode is basically the evolution of something designed for NEXT. Swift is a solution to various problems in application development. I'm not aware if he (et.al.) had real time processing or safety critical devices in mind with 3.0.2.

freyir 10y ago
> NASA has a culture of safety and redundancy ad nauseam because people are indoctrinated I'm not claiming Lattner is missing some innate ability -- it just appears they're putting someone in charge who has never been exposed to this mindset. Maybe they have a culture or other leaders already in place who can foster this within the team. > It is not fair to judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety based upon Xcode and Swift. To be fair, we cannot judge Lattner's ability or commitment to safety at all, because he has no publicly-known experience with safety-critical systems. Perhaps he has relevant experience that's not public. And if it turns out he has no relevant experience, I'm not saying he can't learn. It's just strange for Tesla to put someone in charge who will be learning on the job.
pjmlp 10y ago
Probably not, but the WWDC session about real time audio used Swift on their presentation. http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2016/507n0zrhzxdzmg20zcl/507/507_delivering_an_exceptional_audio_experience.pdf http://devstreaming.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2016/507n0zrhzxdzm...
- ryanmarsh 10y ago
  "Real-time" audio doesn't involve human critical systems.
  - pjmlp 10y ago