5 ms·

Nope. Sorry. Physics. Compared to a lightweight device that fits in your pocket, an IBM PC is huge. Colossal. All the space you could possibly need for modular

by jpm_sd 10y ago

Nope. Sorry. Physics. Compared to a lightweight device that fits in your pocket, an IBM PC is huge. Colossal. All the space you could possibly need for modular interconnects, sheet metal sub-chassis-es, proper fasteners, etc. etc. A comparably-modular mobile phone cannot be anything but thick and heavy, unless you would prefer fragile and unusable.

onli 10y ago
I don't believe that for a minute. While it won't be easy – otherwise Ara would have succeeded already – I don't think we are anywhere near a problem that physics make really infeasible. Where is the physical argument? Where is the formula that says that blocks that size can't stick? You "just" need well defined small intercommunication system for small blocks with one good system that holds it together. If that were impossible, Ara would have not come as far as it did, and the Fairphone 2 would not be as modular as it is.
- jfoutz 10y ago
  Think of it this way. You could have one big board with spots to put in upgrades, camera, memory graphics, whatever. Soldering can get things pretty small, and pretty close together. Home soldering is possible, but requires some tools, and a steady hand. if you want people to solder, you'll probably need to make the connections a little bigger and further apart than what you would need for a nice smt with mask in a shop. Soldering is is also kind of hard to reverse. Any mechanical fastener is easy to undo, but much more bulky than soldering. i'm thinking little plastic clips, but there are alternatives. in any case, they're going to be bigger. That leaves maybe some kind of conductive epoxy and a solvent to remove it. that should be pretty comparable to soldering, but seems like it would have the same problems, you'd want bigger surface mount pads. mechanical fasteners are the way to go, you don't need any (or many) expensive tools to get it right. but mechanical fasteners are big, and that's space that could go to more battery, bigger screen or whatever. further apart means slower bus speed, and probably other problems. The other options require special tools. So phone plus $200 or whatever for the tools just isn't worth it. (and making the process super reliable for novices isn't easy)
wapz 10y ago
I would think a 'modular' phone would have to be one that you could open up and swap out the parts like a pc. You could customize it easily because nothing would be soldered to the board but with onboard ram for boards I don't see how it would be replaceable. The camera lens, speakers, etc should be easily replaceable though.
- rtkwe 10y ago
  There's still just not enough space in anything like a modern smart phone to fit all the interconnects to allow that to happen. A laptop sodimm slot is 3-5 mm thick by itself. Also in general you could replace cameras and speakers now they're often their own assemblies or boards.
djsumdog 10y ago
That's not what makes a PC. A PC has a bunch of standard hardware, a VGA/VESA interface, a console, a legacy BIOS or newer UEFI. Android phones have NONE of this. Google could force this. Their "Open Handset Alliance" is not at all open. It's a closed lock in system to keep all their manufactures from ever making Amazon phones. Google has a vested interested in selling more phones. They could easily require standardization. They could ban binary blobs. They could require all manufactures to make their kernel patches and drivers upstreamable and meet Linux kernel standards. But they don't. You can take a 32-bit x86 Linux distro from today and run it on an old Pentium. You can take a really old 32-bit distro from years ago and run it on a modern machine (of course very little of the hardware will work, but it should boot in legacy mode...okay, okay it might not boot, but if it does boot you will get a console I/O). It has nothing to do with the phone and has to do with the fact that ARM is not an architecture. It's a SoC sold to tons of manufactures who all connect whatever they want to onto whatever pins they want to. Yes yes, there are things like Device Tree configs, but name a phone that supports them (no seriously, I'm asking. Are there any? Like I would want to buy/experiment with them if they exist). Every ARM device seems to have a totally different base image and this isn't maintainable. We need a standard device/IO configuration system so that you can install standard AOSP + drivers onto any phone just like we can with Windows: http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/
sjg007 10y ago
PCs were expensive which created the markets for upgrades and components. Phones are basically disposable.
- Unai 10y ago
  One could say that's a good reason to push the modular phone.
- autocorr 10y ago
  It seems likely they only appear that way because the initial cost is amortized into the contract for most people in the US. An iPhone 7 is around $700! And flagship android phones are up there too. I guess people have a lot of disposable income or just see the sign-up price?
  - kemiller 10y ago
    Starting price for the IBM PC was over $4000 in current dollars, for a dramatically less-capable device. It's not that upgradability wouldn't be nice, it just isn't as important as portability, reliability, battery life, or initial price.
  - intoverflow2 10y ago
    From what I've seem most people end up dropping and smashing them every 5 months, they're well aware of how much they cost because they'll happily slide their fingers across shards of glass to avoid paying again.

by jpm_sd 10y ago

onli 10y ago

I don't believe that for a minute. While it won't be easy – otherwise Ara would have succeeded already – I don't think we are anywhere near a problem that physics make really infeasible. Where is the physical argument? Where is the formula that says that blocks that size can't stick? You "just" need well defined small intercommunication system for small blocks with one good system that holds it together. If that were impossible, Ara would have not come as far as it did, and the Fairphone 2 would not be as modular as it is.

jfoutz 10y ago
Think of it this way. You could have one big board with spots to put in upgrades, camera, memory graphics, whatever. Soldering can get things pretty small, and pretty close together. Home soldering is possible, but requires some tools, and a steady hand. if you want people to solder, you'll probably need to make the connections a little bigger and further apart than what you would need for a nice smt with mask in a shop. Soldering is is also kind of hard to reverse. Any mechanical fastener is easy to undo, but much more bulky than soldering. i'm thinking little plastic clips, but there are alternatives. in any case, they're going to be bigger. That leaves maybe some kind of conductive epoxy and a solvent to remove it. that should be pretty comparable to soldering, but seems like it would have the same problems, you'd want bigger surface mount pads. mechanical fasteners are the way to go, you don't need any (or many) expensive tools to get it right. but mechanical fasteners are big, and that's space that could go to more battery, bigger screen or whatever. further apart means slower bus speed, and probably other problems. The other options require special tools. So phone plus $200 or whatever for the tools just isn't worth it. (and making the process super reliable for novices isn't easy)

wapz 10y ago

I would think a 'modular' phone would have to be one that you could open up and swap out the parts like a pc. You could customize it easily because nothing would be soldered to the board but with onboard ram for boards I don't see how it would be replaceable. The camera lens, speakers, etc should be easily replaceable though.

rtkwe 10y ago
There's still just not enough space in anything like a modern smart phone to fit all the interconnects to allow that to happen. A laptop sodimm slot is 3-5 mm thick by itself. Also in general you could replace cameras and speakers now they're often their own assemblies or boards.

djsumdog 10y ago

That's not what makes a PC. A PC has a bunch of standard hardware, a VGA/VESA interface, a console, a legacy BIOS or newer UEFI. Android phones have NONE of this. Google could force this. Their "Open Handset Alliance" is not at all open. It's a closed lock in system to keep all their manufactures from ever making Amazon phones. Google has a vested interested in selling more phones. They could easily require standardization. They could ban binary blobs. They could require all manufactures to make their kernel patches and drivers upstreamable and meet Linux kernel standards. But they don't. You can take a 32-bit x86 Linux distro from today and run it on an old Pentium. You can take a really old 32-bit distro from years ago and run it on a modern machine (of course very little of the hardware will work, but it should boot in legacy mode...okay, okay it might not boot, but if it does boot you will get a console I/O). It has nothing to do with the phone and has to do with the fact that ARM is not an architecture. It's a SoC sold to tons of manufactures who all connect whatever they want to onto whatever pins they want to. Yes yes, there are things like Device Tree configs, but name a phone that supports them (no seriously, I'm asking. Are there any? Like I would want to buy/experiment with them if they exist). Every ARM device seems to have a totally different base image and this isn't maintainable. We need a standard device/IO configuration system so that you can install standard AOSP + drivers onto any phone just like we can with Windows: http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/

sjg007 10y ago

PCs were expensive which created the markets for upgrades and components. Phones are basically disposable.

Unai 10y ago
One could say that's a good reason to push the modular phone.
autocorr 10y ago
It seems likely they only appear that way because the initial cost is amortized into the contract for most people in the US. An iPhone 7 is around $700! And flagship android phones are up there too. I guess people have a lot of disposable income or just see the sign-up price?
- kemiller 10y ago
  Starting price for the IBM PC was over $4000 in current dollars, for a dramatically less-capable device. It's not that upgradability wouldn't be nice, it just isn't as important as portability, reliability, battery life, or initial price.
- intoverflow2 10y ago
  From what I've seem most people end up dropping and smashing them every 5 months, they're well aware of how much they cost because they'll happily slide their fingers across shards of glass to avoid paying again.