4 ms·

I think the op would like the universities to become ends unto themselves. He specifically complains about university being viewed as a ticket to a career: > A

by akud 10y ago

I think the op would like the universities to become ends unto themselves. He specifically complains about university being viewed as a ticket to a career: > At stake, he believes, is a citizenry that sees college not as a place for in-depth learning and inquiry, but as a means to economic security, forcing colleges to conduct themselves more like a business FWIW, I agree with the op's sentiment.

pvg 10y ago
Pretty sure the poster and the person interviewed in the article are different people.
- akud 10y ago
  Yea, I was using "op" as shorthand.
  - pvg 10y ago
    A shorthand for what? It's already a shorthand and for something else. You are ascribing sentiments to the wrong person, just edit it and fix it.
at-fates-hands 10y ago
Don't you think that's a romantic notion that people go to college for "in-depth learning and inquiry"? I went to college in order to get a "real" job with a salary and benefits. Oh sure, I had a few cool classes that made me think and be philosophical, but for the most part, I saw college as a means to get ahead and earn more than my peers who didn't go to college. I've also seen first hand how many large corporations won't even interview you unless you have a four year degree. Doesn't matter if its relevant or not (I have a liberal arts degree and am a developer) they just want you to have a college degree. You have to remember a lot of colleges are also prime recruiting grounds for the big SV companies and startups as well. In order to continue to get grant money and other perks from these companies, they are essentially forced to do the will of the companies they are in bed with. While it would be nice to have colleges be truly "higher learning" places, I doubt it will change anytime soon.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  Education that is entirely business-centric has a tendency to turn universities into soulless, throat-cutting employee factories. Education that is entirely academia-centric has a tendency to turn universities into useless, navel-gazing ivory towers. They must be forced to meet upon a common ground. Having graduated from college, I cannot envision myself returning for any reason other than to get a new stamp on my academic passport, authorizing me to work in either higher-salary jobs of my current field, or to change careers. All my curiosity itches have been satisfactorily scratched by link-walks on the Internet, libraries, museums, educational television, and garage projects. I never cared for the softer side of learning, in classes that do not have objectively correct answers to problems that may be defined precisely. I certainly never cared for the excessive administrative overhead, or the disproportionately large expenditures relating to athletics. But universities cater to a diverse body of students. If I deny someone else their inverted underwater basket-weaving course, I might not get to take a course on RISC-V assembly. If I deny someone their football or basketball teams, there too goes my marching or pep bands. I think most businesses should be focusing on vocational academies specific to a particular industry as their employee training programs. Universities should be focusing on producing universally competent individuals as their graduates. If you just want a job, you go to the academy for a length of time dependent on the complexity of the field, and come out ready to work it. You go to university if you want to be able to be able to triangulate a distress signal, navigate to the transmitter, pick a lock to gain access, extinguish a fire, perform first aid, transport the victim to a hospital, and then write a dramatized short story about it. While fending off ninjas, zombies, robots, and/or pirates. Universities should be producing people who can think critically and adapt to rapidly changing situations, not just cranking out an improved tier of worker drone. And every last university graduate should have the capacity to (eventually) answer any question that has never yet been asked, from "What is the mass of dark-matter particle-X?" to "How many dollars is 1 kg of particle-X worth?" to "What sort of name should we give to particle-X once we prove that it exists?" My current opinion is that the blame for dilution in the value of higher education lies with the business leaders and their paid-for politicians, who have demolished employer-run job training programs, beaten down the unions that provide apprenticeship educations, and launched for-profit colleges that chip away at the funding of universities without meaningfully contributing to education, then made the bachelor's degree an entry ticket to gainful employment. The business-folk are not going to bend as long as they hold all the leverage. They will continue to corrupt academia with other people's money as a means to cutting their own costs for next quarter, and the future 20 years from now be damned. At this scale, the only feasible solution is for academia to appeal to the heavy hand of government, which could then force business to stop undermining the foundations of higher education (until the regulators have been captured again).
gozur88 10y ago
Universities are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand they're saying universities aren't job training centers, and that you should go to become an educated person even if you never use what you learn to make money. On the other hand they're not shy about publicizing data that shows people with degrees will earn X more money over their lifetimes as a result of the degree and fostering a culture in which the opinions of people without credentials are dismissed.

by akud 10y ago

pvg 10y ago

Pretty sure the poster and the person interviewed in the article are different people.

akud 10y ago
Yea, I was using "op" as shorthand.
- pvg 10y ago
  A shorthand for what? It's already a shorthand and for something else. You are ascribing sentiments to the wrong person, just edit it and fix it.

at-fates-hands 10y ago

Don't you think that's a romantic notion that people go to college for "in-depth learning and inquiry"? I went to college in order to get a "real" job with a salary and benefits. Oh sure, I had a few cool classes that made me think and be philosophical, but for the most part, I saw college as a means to get ahead and earn more than my peers who didn't go to college. I've also seen first hand how many large corporations won't even interview you unless you have a four year degree. Doesn't matter if its relevant or not (I have a liberal arts degree and am a developer) they just want you to have a college degree. You have to remember a lot of colleges are also prime recruiting grounds for the big SV companies and startups as well. In order to continue to get grant money and other perks from these companies, they are essentially forced to do the will of the companies they are in bed with. While it would be nice to have colleges be truly "higher learning" places, I doubt it will change anytime soon.

logfromblammo 10y ago
Education that is entirely business-centric has a tendency to turn universities into soulless, throat-cutting employee factories. Education that is entirely academia-centric has a tendency to turn universities into useless, navel-gazing ivory towers. They must be forced to meet upon a common ground. Having graduated from college, I cannot envision myself returning for any reason other than to get a new stamp on my academic passport, authorizing me to work in either higher-salary jobs of my current field, or to change careers. All my curiosity itches have been satisfactorily scratched by link-walks on the Internet, libraries, museums, educational television, and garage projects. I never cared for the softer side of learning, in classes that do not have objectively correct answers to problems that may be defined precisely. I certainly never cared for the excessive administrative overhead, or the disproportionately large expenditures relating to athletics. But universities cater to a diverse body of students. If I deny someone else their inverted underwater basket-weaving course, I might not get to take a course on RISC-V assembly. If I deny someone their football or basketball teams, there too goes my marching or pep bands. I think most businesses should be focusing on vocational academies specific to a particular industry as their employee training programs. Universities should be focusing on producing universally competent individuals as their graduates. If you just want a job, you go to the academy for a length of time dependent on the complexity of the field, and come out ready to work it. You go to university if you want to be able to be able to triangulate a distress signal, navigate to the transmitter, pick a lock to gain access, extinguish a fire, perform first aid, transport the victim to a hospital, and then write a dramatized short story about it. While fending off ninjas, zombies, robots, and/or pirates. Universities should be producing people who can think critically and adapt to rapidly changing situations, not just cranking out an improved tier of worker drone. And every last university graduate should have the capacity to (eventually) answer any question that has never yet been asked, from "What is the mass of dark-matter particle-X?" to "How many dollars is 1 kg of particle-X worth?" to "What sort of name should we give to particle-X once we prove that it exists?" My current opinion is that the blame for dilution in the value of higher education lies with the business leaders and their paid-for politicians, who have demolished employer-run job training programs, beaten down the unions that provide apprenticeship educations, and launched for-profit colleges that chip away at the funding of universities without meaningfully contributing to education, then made the bachelor's degree an entry ticket to gainful employment. The business-folk are not going to bend as long as they hold all the leverage. They will continue to corrupt academia with other people's money as a means to cutting their own costs for next quarter, and the future 20 years from now be damned. At this scale, the only feasible solution is for academia to appeal to the heavy hand of government, which could then force business to stop undermining the foundations of higher education (until the regulators have been captured again).

gozur88 10y ago

Universities are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand they're saying universities aren't job training centers, and that you should go to become an educated person even if you never use what you learn to make money. On the other hand they're not shy about publicizing data that shows people with degrees will earn X more money over their lifetimes as a result of the degree and fostering a culture in which the opinions of people without credentials are dismissed.