4 ms·

The problem may have an even more basic core problem -- universities in general become ends unto themselves instead of means to an end.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
Or when they are means to an end, that end isn't actually education. Neither is the means...
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Well then, please do reveal the mystery!
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    it's supposed to be an exclusive club for privileged upper middle class to upper class kids where they spend years 17-21 polishing themselves and expanding their social networks before heading into cities to get jobs as white collar professionals, attending graduate school, or pursuing a 'pure' career in academia if their families are sufficiently wealthy. that's more or less how it still works at the good private schools, with exceptions at the margin for extremely bright talent from less wealthy family/means. public schools are supposed to break this pattern, but the best ones basically have turned into the same thing (california, michigan, virginia, north carolina, etc.) with their own hierarchy of elite campuses/locations and in-crowd associations (greek, etc.) the entire system breaks down if you treat it as something fundamentally different, or have some invented set of expectations for what you get out of it.
    - sandworm101 10y ago
      Or theye are a place for young adults to learn the reading and reasoning skilks they are no longer taught in highschool. The state of highschool grads these days is pathetic.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    It's become, at least in many departments of many universities, about "culturation" rather than education - about making students fit into a culture of what "liberalism" has become, which is unquestioningly holding "liberal" values. That's not education; it's something between indoctrination and a social club. I put "liberal" in quotes, because real liberalism is much more broad-minded than what's on much of our universities. Real liberalism isn't about making your opponent shut up; instead, it's about recognizing their right to exist and to have their say.
    - lordCarbonFiber 10y ago
      Because outside the university system is such a bastion of broad-mindedness. Turns out meeting a diverse set of people usually leaves people less willing to put with the more insular values they may have grown up with, go figure.
      - CountSessine 10y ago
        a diverse set of people Sorry - by diverse set of people are you talking about people who would be inclined to get and would be accepted to receive a liberal arts degree at an elite university?
        AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        Those people would be ethnically diverse, perhaps diverse in terms of nationality, but probably not very diverse at all in terms of viewpoint.
    - zeamaize 10y ago
      Maybe in liberal arts and crafts, but this bullshit doesn't apply to STEM.
      - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
        It absolutely applies to STEM. Even moreso. There's a set orthodoxy in STEM that you either accept, or you don't get to graduate in STEM.
akud 10y ago
I think the op would like the universities to become ends unto themselves. He specifically complains about university being viewed as a ticket to a career: > At stake, he believes, is a citizenry that sees college not as a place for in-depth learning and inquiry, but as a means to economic security, forcing colleges to conduct themselves more like a business FWIW, I agree with the op's sentiment.
- pvg 10y ago
  Pretty sure the poster and the person interviewed in the article are different people.
  - akud 10y ago
    Yea, I was using "op" as shorthand.
    - pvg 10y ago
      A shorthand for what? It's already a shorthand and for something else. You are ascribing sentiments to the wrong person, just edit it and fix it.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  Don't you think that's a romantic notion that people go to college for "in-depth learning and inquiry"? I went to college in order to get a "real" job with a salary and benefits. Oh sure, I had a few cool classes that made me think and be philosophical, but for the most part, I saw college as a means to get ahead and earn more than my peers who didn't go to college. I've also seen first hand how many large corporations won't even interview you unless you have a four year degree. Doesn't matter if its relevant or not (I have a liberal arts degree and am a developer) they just want you to have a college degree. You have to remember a lot of colleges are also prime recruiting grounds for the big SV companies and startups as well. In order to continue to get grant money and other perks from these companies, they are essentially forced to do the will of the companies they are in bed with. While it would be nice to have colleges be truly "higher learning" places, I doubt it will change anytime soon.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

Or when they are means to an end, that end isn't actually education. Neither is the means...

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Well then, please do reveal the mystery!
- beachstartup 10y ago
  it's supposed to be an exclusive club for privileged upper middle class to upper class kids where they spend years 17-21 polishing themselves and expanding their social networks before heading into cities to get jobs as white collar professionals, attending graduate school, or pursuing a 'pure' career in academia if their families are sufficiently wealthy. that's more or less how it still works at the good private schools, with exceptions at the margin for extremely bright talent from less wealthy family/means. public schools are supposed to break this pattern, but the best ones basically have turned into the same thing (california, michigan, virginia, north carolina, etc.) with their own hierarchy of elite campuses/locations and in-crowd associations (greek, etc.) the entire system breaks down if you treat it as something fundamentally different, or have some invented set of expectations for what you get out of it.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    Or theye are a place for young adults to learn the reading and reasoning skilks they are no longer taught in highschool. The state of highschool grads these days is pathetic.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  It's become, at least in many departments of many universities, about "culturation" rather than education - about making students fit into a culture of what "liberalism" has become, which is unquestioningly holding "liberal" values. That's not education; it's something between indoctrination and a social club. I put "liberal" in quotes, because real liberalism is much more broad-minded than what's on much of our universities. Real liberalism isn't about making your opponent shut up; instead, it's about recognizing their right to exist and to have their say.
  - lordCarbonFiber 10y ago
    Because outside the university system is such a bastion of broad-mindedness. Turns out meeting a diverse set of people usually leaves people less willing to put with the more insular values they may have grown up with, go figure.
    - CountSessine 10y ago
      a diverse set of people Sorry - by diverse set of people are you talking about people who would be inclined to get and would be accepted to receive a liberal arts degree at an elite university?
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        Those people would be ethnically diverse, perhaps diverse in terms of nationality, but probably not very diverse at all in terms of viewpoint.
  - zeamaize 10y ago
    Maybe in liberal arts and crafts, but this bullshit doesn't apply to STEM.
    - MisterBastahrd 10y ago
      It absolutely applies to STEM. Even moreso. There's a set orthodoxy in STEM that you either accept, or you don't get to graduate in STEM.

akud 10y ago

I think the op would like the universities to become ends unto themselves. He specifically complains about university being viewed as a ticket to a career: > At stake, he believes, is a citizenry that sees college not as a place for in-depth learning and inquiry, but as a means to economic security, forcing colleges to conduct themselves more like a business FWIW, I agree with the op's sentiment.

pvg 10y ago
Pretty sure the poster and the person interviewed in the article are different people.
- akud 10y ago
  Yea, I was using "op" as shorthand.
  - pvg 10y ago
    A shorthand for what? It's already a shorthand and for something else. You are ascribing sentiments to the wrong person, just edit it and fix it.
at-fates-hands 10y ago
Don't you think that's a romantic notion that people go to college for "in-depth learning and inquiry"? I went to college in order to get a "real" job with a salary and benefits. Oh sure, I had a few cool classes that made me think and be philosophical, but for the most part, I saw college as a means to get ahead and earn more than my peers who didn't go to college. I've also seen first hand how many large corporations won't even interview you unless you have a four year degree. Doesn't matter if its relevant or not (I have a liberal arts degree and am a developer) they just want you to have a college degree. You have to remember a lot of colleges are also prime recruiting grounds for the big SV companies and startups as well. In order to continue to get grant money and other perks from these companies, they are essentially forced to do the will of the companies they are in bed with. While it would be nice to have colleges be truly "higher learning" places, I doubt it will change anytime soon.