11 ms·

I regret ever using Google or Facebook services so extensively. I'm on Windows 7 and intentionally never upgraded to Windows 10 due to the privacy issues. From

by tabeth 10y ago

I regret ever using Google or Facebook services so extensively. I'm on Windows 7 and intentionally never upgraded to Windows 10 due to the privacy issues. From this announcement it doesn't sound like there's anyway to 100% remove any tracking for all applications. Am I mistaken?

quickben 10y ago
You are not. MS is playing intentionally dense with this PR post. It is infuriating that one can't disable info (keystrokes, crashed dev apps with source inside) leaking out, on a machine paid in full. Hardware and software.
- __jal 10y ago
  Yep. The joke is that Microsoft finally solved the perception problem around spyware by making the OS into one big bundle of spyware. I still have a VM running Win7 that I use to run CNC software. Like any other software I don't trust, it isn't allowed talk to the net and any time it breaks I roll it back to a checkpoint and continue. And that's all the Windows I need in my life. And now that Apple's laptops no longer appeal, the future, for me at least, is all about Linux and FreeBSD.
  - blakes 10y ago
    What are you using as your host OS? I've been really wanting to virtualize my Win7 install but I haven't decided on a host OS yet. My ideal would be Qubes OS.
    - lokedhs 10y ago
      Qubes OS is a reasonable way of running Windows VM's. You install a template VM with Windows 7, and the only thing you run in that VM is Windows Update to make sure it's up to date. Your actual Windows work is run in AppVM's which are based on the template. Any changes in an AppVM is rolled back every time it's restarted (it's always based on the template), with the exception on the user's home directory. For anyone that hasn't used Qubes OS, this is how you do most work in it, even for the Linux VM's, and I like how it allows you to be in better control of what is actually running on your system. Using Qubes OS take a bit more effort, but once you get everything up and running the way you want it, you'll be asking yourself why not all operating systems do this.
      - blakes 10y ago
        Thanks for the info! My most painful hurdle will be passing PCIe through to the Win VM, as I do enjoy some CS:GO in my life.
    - __jal 10y ago
      This is a very late response - hope you find it. I really like the idea of Qubes, but it just seems Not There Yet. Or at least, was when I last looked. Anyway, I wouldn't recommend doing what I'm doing. My home environment is the result of many years of incremental change, benign neglect, not-so-benign neglect, quick duct-tape fixes and grandiose redesigns half-completed. Learn From My Mistakes. I run two virtualization hosts - FreeBSD and Ubuntu[1]. FreeBSD runs my always-on VMs (DNS, DB, some apps, monitoring, etc.). The Ubuntu box is where I run the Windows VM I mentioned, and sometimes others, depending on what I'm working on. Ubuntu/KVM is fine as a virtualization host. I'm less thrilled with Ubuntu overall; generally, I don't like some of the decisions they've made. Next rebuild I'll probably be back to vanilla Debian. I wouldn't recommend FreeBSD/Bhyve to anyone who is not already conversant with FreeBSD. From the perspective of a user coming from Linux, the transition isn't bad, but if you're running VMs, you're at least a part-time sysadmin as well, and managing FreeBSD looks a fair bit different than Linux. Additionally, Bhyve is currently missing some features KVM/libvirt has. In particular, if you want VGA or USB passthrough, stick to Linux[2] for now. This is all predicated on this being a workstation - if you're doing server virtualization, I really like Ovirt, which requires an RHEL-lineage host OS. [1] The FreeBSD box used to be "just" a storage server, but has grown up a lot and last time I did a lot of work on it, I renamed it 'spof', as in 'single point of failure', in honor of the role it serves. The Ubuntu box is my desktop machine. [2] Actually, unless you like the adventure, maybe wait a bit - there are patches soon to be merged that will make VGA-passthrough quite a bit easier than it is now. I had a terrible time getting it working and to a kinda-stable point.
bostand 10y ago
Microsoft mistake was to mark telemetry as such. Everyone where happy with win 7 and 8 where this was hidden from user...
- kardos 10y ago
  Because people have stopped using Windows in droves? What exactly went wrong for them through that mistake?
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Windows 10 telemetry collects far, far more data than the customer experience program did on Windows 7 and 8-- and you could opt out of the CEP. (Note that Microsoft patched Win10-style telemetry into Win7 and 8 in 2016, so this is no longer the case. But it was when those OS's were current.)
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    But Windows 10 doesn't collect much more than Apple and Safari do. It collects substantially less than iOS and Android do. And of course, all of this ignores that individual 3rd party software is actually the real culprit (along with websites).
    - hendersoon 10y ago
      That's immaterial, because MacOS allows users to opt-out of data collection. Windows does not. Mobile operating systems are a completely different animal.
      - bostand 10y ago
        I very much doubt osx let's you disable all data collection and still allow you use the store and its apps and iTunes content and all that.
        hendersoon 10y ago
proactivesvcs 10y ago
Nor can you remove the integrated advertising system.
shostack 10y ago
I'm jealous--I could have purchased my last laptop with Windows 7 after upgrading from an older Windows 7 system. I went with 10 because I'm a gamer. Really regretting that now, especially since many of the games I play these days probably would have been fine without it.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  > I went with 10 because I'm a gamer. This doesn't make any sense. There's nothing in Windows 10 that is a prerequisite for being a "gamer". DX12 certainly isn't it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_12_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_12_... It's not a coincidence that most of the DX12 exclusives are published by MS. Also note, that none of those are particularly good games, albeit they probably do work okay in showcasing some of DX12's features. Not only that, but I noticed you purchased a laptop, which makes even less sense, since the most graphically demanding games that require DX12 are unlikely to run at decent framerates on a laptop anyway, without spending $3000+ on it.
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    Windows 7 and 8 have the exact same telemetry as Windows 10 now. It was added to those old operating systems in 2016.
    - atesti 10y ago
      Are you sure that this is really the case and that it does send data even if any consumer experience program or error reporting to Microsoft is disabled?
      - hendersoon 10y ago
        I haven't seen anyone closely investigating the telemetry added in 2016 to Windows 7 and 8, now that you mention it. All I've seen are reports it's "the same as Windows 10". I would be very surprised if MS allowed users to disable the newly added Win7/8 telemetry, as they do not allow it on Win10.

by tabeth 10y ago

quickben 10y ago

You are not. MS is playing intentionally dense with this PR post. It is infuriating that one can't disable info (keystrokes, crashed dev apps with source inside) leaking out, on a machine paid in full. Hardware and software.

__jal 10y ago
Yep. The joke is that Microsoft finally solved the perception problem around spyware by making the OS into one big bundle of spyware. I still have a VM running Win7 that I use to run CNC software. Like any other software I don't trust, it isn't allowed talk to the net and any time it breaks I roll it back to a checkpoint and continue. And that's all the Windows I need in my life. And now that Apple's laptops no longer appeal, the future, for me at least, is all about Linux and FreeBSD.
- blakes 10y ago
  What are you using as your host OS? I've been really wanting to virtualize my Win7 install but I haven't decided on a host OS yet. My ideal would be Qubes OS.
  - lokedhs 10y ago
    Qubes OS is a reasonable way of running Windows VM's. You install a template VM with Windows 7, and the only thing you run in that VM is Windows Update to make sure it's up to date. Your actual Windows work is run in AppVM's which are based on the template. Any changes in an AppVM is rolled back every time it's restarted (it's always based on the template), with the exception on the user's home directory. For anyone that hasn't used Qubes OS, this is how you do most work in it, even for the Linux VM's, and I like how it allows you to be in better control of what is actually running on your system. Using Qubes OS take a bit more effort, but once you get everything up and running the way you want it, you'll be asking yourself why not all operating systems do this.
    - blakes 10y ago
      Thanks for the info! My most painful hurdle will be passing PCIe through to the Win VM, as I do enjoy some CS:GO in my life.
  - __jal 10y ago
    This is a very late response - hope you find it. I really like the idea of Qubes, but it just seems Not There Yet. Or at least, was when I last looked. Anyway, I wouldn't recommend doing what I'm doing. My home environment is the result of many years of incremental change, benign neglect, not-so-benign neglect, quick duct-tape fixes and grandiose redesigns half-completed. Learn From My Mistakes. I run two virtualization hosts - FreeBSD and Ubuntu[1]. FreeBSD runs my always-on VMs (DNS, DB, some apps, monitoring, etc.). The Ubuntu box is where I run the Windows VM I mentioned, and sometimes others, depending on what I'm working on. Ubuntu/KVM is fine as a virtualization host. I'm less thrilled with Ubuntu overall; generally, I don't like some of the decisions they've made. Next rebuild I'll probably be back to vanilla Debian. I wouldn't recommend FreeBSD/Bhyve to anyone who is not already conversant with FreeBSD. From the perspective of a user coming from Linux, the transition isn't bad, but if you're running VMs, you're at least a part-time sysadmin as well, and managing FreeBSD looks a fair bit different than Linux. Additionally, Bhyve is currently missing some features KVM/libvirt has. In particular, if you want VGA or USB passthrough, stick to Linux[2] for now. This is all predicated on this being a workstation - if you're doing server virtualization, I really like Ovirt, which requires an RHEL-lineage host OS. [1] The FreeBSD box used to be "just" a storage server, but has grown up a lot and last time I did a lot of work on it, I renamed it 'spof', as in 'single point of failure', in honor of the role it serves. The Ubuntu box is my desktop machine. [2] Actually, unless you like the adventure, maybe wait a bit - there are patches soon to be merged that will make VGA-passthrough quite a bit easier than it is now. I had a terrible time getting it working and to a kinda-stable point.

bostand 10y ago

Microsoft mistake was to mark telemetry as such. Everyone where happy with win 7 and 8 where this was hidden from user...

kardos 10y ago
Because people have stopped using Windows in droves? What exactly went wrong for them through that mistake?
hendersoon 10y ago
Windows 10 telemetry collects far, far more data than the customer experience program did on Windows 7 and 8-- and you could opt out of the CEP. (Note that Microsoft patched Win10-style telemetry into Win7 and 8 in 2016, so this is no longer the case. But it was when those OS's were current.)
- KirinDave 10y ago
  But Windows 10 doesn't collect much more than Apple and Safari do. It collects substantially less than iOS and Android do. And of course, all of this ignores that individual 3rd party software is actually the real culprit (along with websites).
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    That's immaterial, because MacOS allows users to opt-out of data collection. Windows does not. Mobile operating systems are a completely different animal.
    - bostand 10y ago
      I very much doubt osx let's you disable all data collection and still allow you use the store and its apps and iTunes content and all that.
      - hendersoon 10y ago

proactivesvcs 10y ago

Nor can you remove the integrated advertising system.

shostack 10y ago

I'm jealous--I could have purchased my last laptop with Windows 7 after upgrading from an older Windows 7 system. I went with 10 because I'm a gamer. Really regretting that now, especially since many of the games I play these days probably would have been fine without it.

antisthenes 10y ago
> I went with 10 because I'm a gamer. This doesn't make any sense. There's nothing in Windows 10 that is a prerequisite for being a "gamer". DX12 certainly isn't it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_12_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_12_... It's not a coincidence that most of the DX12 exclusives are published by MS. Also note, that none of those are particularly good games, albeit they probably do work okay in showcasing some of DX12's features. Not only that, but I noticed you purchased a laptop, which makes even less sense, since the most graphically demanding games that require DX12 are unlikely to run at decent framerates on a laptop anyway, without spending $3000+ on it.
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Windows 7 and 8 have the exact same telemetry as Windows 10 now. It was added to those old operating systems in 2016.
  - atesti 10y ago
    Are you sure that this is really the case and that it does send data even if any consumer experience program or error reporting to Microsoft is disabled?
    - hendersoon 10y ago
      I haven't seen anyone closely investigating the telemetry added in 2016 to Windows 7 and 8, now that you mention it. All I've seen are reports it's "the same as Windows 10". I would be very surprised if MS allowed users to disable the newly added Win7/8 telemetry, as they do not allow it on Win10.