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Our continuing commitment to your privacy with Windows 10
- ivraatiems 10y agoOn the surface, I'm glad Microsoft is doing this. However, it's hard for me to ignore the idea that with these positive changes might come hidden, negative changes. That is, I don't think I can trust Microsoft to just do what they say they're doing in this announcement; I won't fully believe this is better for privacy overall until people have been over the new version of Windows with a fine-toothed comb and confirmed it. Plus, there are indicators (like the language around the switching off of invasive settings) that Microsoft's goal is still to collect way more data than seems reasonable.
- gizmo 10y agoThat's funny, it's a web-based privacy dashboard that only works when you link your Windows 10 account with your Microsoft Live account. In other words: the opposite of privacy. Your bing search history shouldn't be linked to your identity in the first place. Same for cortana and edge. So Microsoft isn't getting any kudos for allowing users to see what kind of data is being collected on them (which they have to do by EU law anyhow). I applaud any serious projects that advance privacy but this ain't it.
- akjainaj 10y agoThe web-based dashboard is for your MS account. Keep reading and you'll see what's coming to desktops.
- gizmo 10y agoExcept they're still collecting everything by default and shifting the responsibility to review the privacy settings to the consumer. They conclude: > When it comes to your privacy, we strive to make choices easy to understand while also providing clear visibility and control over your data. This is entirely the wrong approach. Just don't harvest the data in the first place. Have opt-in measures if you must. That's it. That's what a serious commitment to privacy looks like. Anything else is a serious commitment to get away with harvesting as much data as possible while minimizing PR backlash.
- hendersoon 10y agoHonestly at this point I would be satisfied with an opt-OUT. That's right-- there is no supported way to opt-out of telemetry on Windows 10 Home or Pro SKUs. You need to use a third-party program to do it, and these settings are lost with every major upgrade, which come twice per year. https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
- Sargos 10y agoSo this announcement satisfies you then? Good.
- hendersoon 10y agoNo. This announcement does not include a way to opt-out of telemetry.
- bradford 10y ago(disclaimer, ms employee here and the below is just my opinion). > Just don't harvest the data in the first place. for better or worse, I just don't think this is feasible anymore. Telemetry is, by now, a fundamental part of the engineering process. Products that don't incorporate it are going to be clobbered by products that do. Microsoft didn't start this paradigm, but I think they had to incorporate it in order to stay competitive. If you can't avoid telemetry, I think the next best thing is to be transparent about it (with respect to what's being collected, how it's being used) and allow the user some control over it (by letting them 'clear' data that's been collected, and opting in/out as needed). In that respect, I don't think the steps taken today are sufficient, but they are headed in the correct direction. I also think they are being more open/transparent than many other tech companies (who do similar things without receiving nearly as much negative press as MS).
- akjainaj 10y agoTelemetry is important if you've gotten rid of, you know, the QA teams MS had in the past
- mintplant 10y agoIt's telling that the lowest telemetry level is considered a premium "Enterprise" feature [1], and there's no way to disable it entirely. [1] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con... CTRL-F "windows 10 enterprise"
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoA big part of the issue I'd think is that as Microsoft pushes over to the Store as a significant app distribution medium, they consider no telemetry a breaking issue for anyone who doesn't have an enterprise software deployment setup. I'm kinda sad to see that's where we've hit on service dependence though.
- hendersoon 10y agoI have telemetry completely disabled via a 3rd party program. The Windows app store works perfectly fine.
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoIsn't Microsoft sending requests to see if updated versions of Store apps are available telemetry, if it indicates which apps you have installed? There's always some manner of detectable feedback they could collect, and so no matter how slight "Basic" telemetry becomes, it may be dishonest to ever call it "No" telemetry.
- hendersoon 10y agoContacting MS servers for functionality inherent in the application being executed is perfectly fine by me. I expect Spotify to know I just listened to "Bring Me to Life" by Evanescence. I don't expect MICROSOFT to know that too, unless I use a Microsoft music service.
- clebio 10y agoThanks for that. I _still_ can't tell, from looking through it -- are they going to stop harvesting wifi access point passwords? That alone (along with many of the other items) is a non-starter.
- akerro 10y ago>At Microsoft, we are deeply committed to protecting our customers’ privacy. This includes providing clear choices and easy-to-use tools that put you in control of how your information is collected and used. LOL here I stopped reading this FUD. Do they still re-enable telemetry when updates to them are installed?
- hendersoon 10y agoYes, they do.
- Hydraulix989 10y agoI'm using the O&O ShutUp desktop software to disable all of the invasive telemetry, phoning home, etc.: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 There's also a few scripts on GitHub like win10-unfuck: https://github.com/dfkt/win10-unfuck https://github.com/dfkt/win10-unfuck
- STRiDEX 10y agoSaw this on hacker news the other day https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoAs an obvious point, check for updates to these solutions after the new build as it'll probably break tools like these for a bit.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- noja 10y agocontinuing? I stopped reading. Marketing bull does that.
- sboselli 10y agoThe irony. Windows 10 is basically a data collecting malware. Terry (?), the writer, must be from Microsoft's experimental comedy group.
- eps 10y ago> Continuing commitment to privacy with Windows 10 MWAHAHAHAHA... Jesus. Just read it word by word. That's some Grade A newspeak. Such a strong wiff of Orwell.
- kardos 10y agoThis comes across as: "Now that we've got all your private data, there's a diminishing return on maintaining a system to collect it again, so we'll go for some positive PR by putting this interface up and let you secure a false sense of privacy" They've been collecting "telemetry" through an opaque encrypted collection system [1], and after a year of this collection, comes a "deep commitment to privacy"? This is very difficult to believe. Am I needlessly cynical here? [1] As far as I know, nobody has decrypted the "telemetry" streams, so we don't actually know what MSFT is collecting, so nobody can be sure that it doesn't collect your sensitive documents, private keys, keyboard logs, etc.
- superflyguy 10y agoWhy would they need to decrypt it? Surely it would be easier to reverse whatever is encrypting it and dump it out in the clear? Perhaps the EFF could request that Microsoft open source or otherwise explain the process that produces the data.
- kardos 10y agoIf you can determine a way to intercept the pre-encrypted "telemetry" data, then we'd have the ability to verify Microsoft's claims about what they are transmitting. At the moment, we only have Microsoft's claims, and they are unverifiable.
- infogulch 10y agoCould we not reverse-engineer the machine code that generates this data?
- peatmoss 10y agoAnd people claim that making Linux work is hard. Man, making Linux / BSD do what I want seems trivial compared to making Windows / OSX not do what I don't want.
- superflyguy 10y ago
- barrkel 10y agoI'm uncomfortable sharing the amount of time I have games running with Steam; I certainly don't want MS to have information about which applications I'm running and for how long. MS and I have radically different expectations about what privacy means in the context of a personal computer. In particular, I run applications I've written myself. You could easily figure out what I'm doing from knowing which application was in the foreground at any given time. Contents of files etc. is at the extreme end of privacy violation. I strongly object to the thinnest end of the wedge.
- criley2 10y agoThank you for bringing up the invasive and crazy anti-privacy policies of Valve/Steam, it boggles my mind that so few people have problems with it. Could you imagine if Facebook pushed a notification to all your friends when you visit a new page? If Microsoft sent an email to your entire contact book every single time you opened a program? And yet, that's precisely what Steam does. Insane.
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoIt's particularly uncomfortable now that Steam has some... risqué game titles out there. I'm surprised there isn't at least more options on Steam to mark certain titles as private.
- suby 10y agoYou can set your profile private and then play in offline mode, which should prevent people from viewing your profile and seeing what your playtimes are. I'm not sure if playing in offline mode stops Valve from logging / viewing this data, however. I'd be surprised it it does.
- zarify 10y agoIn terms of playtime I think offline mode does stop it being logged. My wifi was stuffed in my game box and about 20 hours of a game weren't logged by the time I got a new adapter and reconnected to Steam servers.
- divbit 10y agoWindows 10 vs Android vs iOS data collection. Has anyone written up a good comparison? (I guess I am thinking of these in their mobile OS form).
- tabeth 10y agoI regret ever using Google or Facebook services so extensively. I'm on Windows 7 and intentionally never upgraded to Windows 10 due to the privacy issues. From this announcement it doesn't sound like there's anyway to 100% remove any tracking for all applications. Am I mistaken?
- quickben 10y agoYou are not. MS is playing intentionally dense with this PR post. It is infuriating that one can't disable info (keystrokes, crashed dev apps with source inside) leaking out, on a machine paid in full. Hardware and software.
- __jal 10y agoYep. The joke is that Microsoft finally solved the perception problem around spyware by making the OS into one big bundle of spyware. I still have a VM running Win7 that I use to run CNC software. Like any other software I don't trust, it isn't allowed talk to the net and any time it breaks I roll it back to a checkpoint and continue. And that's all the Windows I need in my life. And now that Apple's laptops no longer appeal, the future, for me at least, is all about Linux and FreeBSD.
- blakes 10y agoWhat are you using as your host OS? I've been really wanting to virtualize my Win7 install but I haven't decided on a host OS yet. My ideal would be Qubes OS.
- lokedhs 10y agoQubes OS is a reasonable way of running Windows VM's. You install a template VM with Windows 7, and the only thing you run in that VM is Windows Update to make sure it's up to date. Your actual Windows work is run in AppVM's which are based on the template. Any changes in an AppVM is rolled back every time it's restarted (it's always based on the template), with the exception on the user's home directory. For anyone that hasn't used Qubes OS, this is how you do most work in it, even for the Linux VM's, and I like how it allows you to be in better control of what is actually running on your system. Using Qubes OS take a bit more effort, but once you get everything up and running the way you want it, you'll be asking yourself why not all operating systems do this.
- Spooky23 10y agoI didn't read the article, but the title makes me assume that I have no privacy. Good news doesn't get delivered with titles like that.
- bostand 10y agoI think this is great, they are pretty upfront with what they are collecting and why they need that What's with all these negative comments here? Does any other os give you so much information about what is going on behind the scene?
- ajkjk 10y agoIt's just duplicitous corporatespeak. They do whatever they want, ignoring privacy entirely, for years, and then claim to have a "continuing commitment". They don't care about privacy, they just care that they got flak in the press about privacy so they're trying to backpedal about it.
- floopidydoopidy 10y agoSeriously? Linux and BSD, for example, give you complete control over all the information harvested from you.
- bostand 10y agoMost of the time. Do you remember Ubuntu amazon search? Their geolocation database?
- uabstraction 10y agoYeah, one distribution tried this a few years back, got grilled to a char by the community for it, and swiftly trashed the idea. This is nothing like Microsoft turning Windows into one giant dark pattern and trying to convince the world that it's progress while showing no signs of backing down despite the overwhelming backlash. Ubuntu's Amazon integration was a failed experiment in an ecosystem with literally hundreds of other players to choose from while Microsoft's Windows telemetry is an inescapable dogma forced upon all Windows users.
- bostand 10y agoUbuntu is still doing some questionable things. At least on 16.04 gvfs-http would sometimes create hundreds of connections to the mothership even with all privacy settings maxed out.
- Waterluvian 10y agoI hate hearing my hard drives grinding away only to find its windows fucking telemetry. I keep trying to shut it off to no avail.
- djjeoejebh 10y agoAnyone who continues to use Windows 10 cares nothing about security nor privacy. You are essentially opting into an Orwellian society.
- olkid 10y agoAs long as Windows 10 continues to establish unsolicited tcp connections on boot, there is ZERO privacy.
- raesene9 10y agoMany OS' and apps create unsolicited TCP connections on startup to check for updates, seems a touch harsh to equate that with "Zero Privacy", also kind of hard to see how they do product updates without them...
- PhantomGremlin 10y agokind of hard to see how they do product updates without them... It's very easy to see how they do product updates without them. Simply have the user do "software update ..." at his convenience. What you meant to say is it's kind of hard to see how they FORCE product updates without them.
- raesene9 10y agoFor non-technical users, it seems pretty likely that a product without automatic updates, users won't update frequently. This results in users getting compromised... a lot... that's why pretty much every heavily used piece of consumer software now does automatic updates, from Apple, to Google to Microsoft. Decrying automatic updates as "zero privacy" seems a bit daft in that context.
- red_admiral 10y ago"We also recognize organizations have different needs than individuals when addressing privacy." Translation: in our opinion, individuals don't need that much privacy. So we won't give them any.
- smartmic 10y agoIn contemplation of those "news", I recommend a refreshing lecture about free software from Richard Stallman: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-impor... Excerpt: "With free software, the users control the program, both individually and collectively. So they control what their computers do (assuming those computers are loyal and do what the users' programs tell them to do). With proprietary software, the program controls the users, and some other entity (the developer or “owner”) controls the program. So the proprietary program gives its developer power over its users. That is unjust in itself, and tempts the developer to mistreat the users in other ways."
- criddell 10y agoSure, organizations have different needs. If I lost my work laptop and my personal laptop, it would be far more concerned about the data on my personal laptop. That's the nature of personal things. So I would agree with Microsoft that the two have different needs: individuals require more control over what and how their personal and private data is harvested by Microsoft.
- eximius 10y agoNo, no, no. Individual's can't afford that much privacy.
- MrZongle2 10y agoMy continuing commitment to my privacy means that I continue to stick with Windows 7, and only for those things that I must use Windows for. Everything else is done on Linux. I acknowledge that this alone doesn't guarantee my privacy, but I refuse to make it easy for corporations to rifle through my personal documents and watch me like a hawk. Aside from that, I object to having a "free" upgrade option shoved down my throat so often and aggressively that I've got to hack the registry to shut it up. It's clear that Microsoft still doesn't give a damn about what I want as a user.
- hendersoon 10y agoMicrosoft added Win10-style telemetry to Win7 in 2016. You're running it right now!
- MrZongle2 10y agoAnd like I said, I realize that avoiding the upgrade to Windows 10 doesn't guarantee my privacy...but I'm not making it easier for Microsoft. I'll continue to disable that nonsense by removing specific updates. And I'll continue using Linux. Redmond can double-down on their Orwellian fantasy while calling it the opposite, but in the long run it will cost them dearly.
- EasyTiger_ 10y agoMy god this is painful to read with all the cold and opaque corporate speak. When they start referring to everything as 'experiences' my brain switches off
- lokedhs 10y agoUnder Ballmer, you never had a Microsoft press release or any other statement without the word "innovation" sprayed all over it. It seems that the new Microsoft are now using the word "experience" for the same effect.
- zelon88 10y agoHaving the default position of gathering everyone's personal information and requiring them to learn more about your policies before manually opt-ing out is a huge problem, and it's one of the major reasons why I upgraded my personal Computers from Windows 7 to Ubuntu. The "GWX" thing didn't help either. How about you take a page from your own book and go back to an O/S that strictly runs my programs and doesn't look for analytics in my computing habits? Honestly, taking payment for a product and still using the client as a product through gathering analytics is double-dipping. It's monetized twice over and provides no added value to the user.
- UhUhUhUh 10y ago('Our continuing commitment to %s with Windows 10', s)
- xg15 10y agoI do like how the "simplified" privacy controls conflates sharing choices you would want to make with sharing choices that don't benefit you in any way. E.g.: Share your location with the weather app and microsoft? Yes/No. Share your location only with the weather app? Sorry, that's not possible.
- linkregister 10y agoTo be fair, if the weather app is developed by Microsoft, then you are sharing your location with Microsoft.
- gizmo 10y agoRecommended for Windows 10 users, although you may want to review every change carefully. https://modzero.github.io/fix-windows-privacy/ https://modzero.github.io/fix-windows-privacy/
- criddell 10y ago> We are continuing this commitment to make it as easy as possible for you to make informed choices about your privacy with Windows 10 Can I choose to keep all of my data private? Why is there no opt-out? They like to talk about the benefits of the sharing the data with them and I think that's great. They should make it so compelling that I want to share my data. So far, they haven't. I feel like I'm giving up far too much for what I'm getting in return.
- kstrauser 10y ago"Continuing" implies that it was there in the first place, and I don't believe that to be the case. Between - The telemetry, - Spying on kids by default (https://boingboing.net/2015/08/10/windows-10.html https://boingboing.net/2015/08/10/windows-10.html - I helped my kid disable this on his new Christmas laptop), and - The "share your Wi-Fi passwords with your friends" feature I just don't have any confidence that Microsoft isn't analyzing everything I do and sharing all my metadata with anyone who wants it. Say what you will about macOS and Linux, but at least with those I'm the customer and not the product.
- venomsnake 10y agoBrilliant double speak. If Micrisoft cared at all they would have one big button called turn off all collection.
- antisthenes 10y agoYes, and without having to make an account to do it.
- aszantu 10y agoAs a user I don't feel save enough to trust my operating system with its word, that if I'm going to dissable shit it stays off. I'm still on Win 7 and still sometimes don't feel sure, that it does what I say it should.
- hyperion2010 10y agoI just built my father a new computer and while I know that Windows 7 has some related issues they are nowhere near the level of Windows 10 (and that bit about forced restarts sounds a whole lot like an involuntary bsod 'crash' from about 1996...). Thus I went out of my way to get a license for W7 Ultimate... which cost more than the equivalent for W10. Makes me wonder.
- thewavelength 10y agoIirc, in an update end of 2016 the full telemetry weapons have been pushed to W7 and W8 by default. All three OS now include the same level of telemetry. Just wanted to let you know.
- hyperion2010 10y agoSigh. Thanks for the reminder.
- hendersoon 10y agoThis is standard Microsoft BS. "Basic" telemetry is absolutely not required for Windows to function. How do I know that? Because I turned it off using a 3rd party program (link below) and Windows still functions. Windows Enterprise and Education can set telemetry to "Security" which is ACTUALLY a minimum reasonable setting for Windows to function. They explicitly block Windows Home and Pro users from setting telemetry to "Security". It's outrageous that MS gets away with this. If only videogames released on MacOS, I would have switched years ago. O&O Shutup10: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 "Security" telemetry description: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization#security-level https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con...
- Sargos 10y ago"It's outrageous that MS gets away with this. If only videogames released on MacOS, I would have switched years ago" MacOS collects this same telemetry data. Do you trust Apple over Microsoft? It's non-identifying data that is used to make their products better and track crashes. Now they are going above and beyond other products and letting you turn even that non-intrusive feature off.
- hendersoon 10y agoI don't trust anyone. Apple allows MacOS users to opt-out of their telemetry. Microsoft doesn't. That includes this change, too, by the way. Users still are not permitted to opt-out of telemetry on Windows 10 Home or Pro.
- actsasbuffoon 10y ago> MacOS collects this same telemetry data. Microsoft admits that at one point (unclear if this is still happening) collecting your browser history and keystrokes. I can't find any articles online claiming that Apple collects this information. Do you have sources for this claim?
- benevol 10y ago"commitment to your privacy with Windows", says the data collecting PRISM program member. It's so surreal that there are no words for it anymore.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 10y agoSo, still no way to opt out. I expected Microsoft to realize how much trust they've burned, and that the data from 5% of users who bother to change their settings aren't worth the bad PR. As a result, I expected that after however long it takes for a big company to react to feedback, they'll do an about-face and try to salvage what they can. Seems like I was wrong (or they need another year or two to come to that conclusion).
- zippoxer 10y agoOh finally, Microsoft tackled NONE of Windows 10's privacy problems. I can't believe the most common PC operating system in the world tracks you by default and prevents you from completely opting out. If only Linux ran Overwatch as well as Windows does, I'd never boot this spyware again.
- pasbesoin 10y agoFool me once, shame on you. Fool me for the 10,000th time...
- threepipeproblm 10y agoCan't use the privacy manager without a Microsoft account. I just threw up a little in my mouth.
- fuzzfactor 10y agoIOW, not enough committment yet to make Windows 10 suitable for the internet. I understand. This is by design.