20 ms·

While I understand this intellectually (that is, I know that this is an American-centric thing, and that other societies in the world have a different view), I

by cr0sh 10y ago

While I understand this intellectually (that is, I know that this is an American-centric thing, and that other societies in the world have a different view), I am curious how this view would be justified? One could "reducto-ad-absurdum" the statement, and say "To be bedridden and unable to walk is to be free!" - which would obviously be a very absurd statement to make. In America, part of the reason we feel this way is because of our vast travel distances compared to other areas of the world; it isn't unknown for people to commute to work over 50 miles (80 km) one way. Or to travel that far to go shopping. Travelling to another state could easily be hundreds of miles and hours of travel. It would comparable to driving between countries in Europe (assuming a similar "interstate" freeway system). We want that freedom so that we can live where we want to live, shop where we want to shop, play where we want to play, and work where we want to work - and not have that dictated to us based on economic situation, geographic location, etc. If we want to live in the slums, and commute to the "rich part of town" to work (or vice-versa!) - even if the distance is fairly large - we want that kind of choice. One could argue about other forms of transportation - but those come with costs, and in the US we don't have great public transportation - and ultimately, you are chained to the decisions and whims of the transportation and other people using it; you can't decide where and when to go, and when to stop, or when to be picked up... So I guess I'm trying to understand the statement "it is freedom not to have a car"? How is it freedom not to have faster, longer distance personal transport? I can understand economic freedom (it's expensive to own a car - and even more so if you have to pay to store or park it), and I can understand the licensing argument - but in general, being limited to the alternative options seems to me to be less freedom, not more. I'm obviously missing something... /also - I like to go off-road - 4-wheelin' in the dirt and mud - can't do that without a vehicle (and currently, you can't do it with anything not IC powered that is available to consumers at a decent price - and I don't know if an autonomous ORV would be fun or not - but I can't wait for 4wd electrics that can be lifted and modded with big 44" mudders).

aninhumer 10y ago
>So I guess I'm trying to understand the statement "it is freedom not to have a car"? It's the freedom to be able to get around without having to babysit a tonne of metal, and then find somewhere to put it when you get near where you're going, and then have to go back for it later. >How is it freedom not to have faster, longer distance personal transport? Decent public transport is faster and much more comfortable over long distances.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  > Decent public transport is faster and much more comfortable over long distances. Significantly! You can stand up and walk the whole length of a train if you desire without having to stop. There's food and drink brought right to your seat, and hot food if you walk to the buffet car or are in first class. In the UK, if you book a non-Advance ticket, you can get out of the train, leave the station, go wherever you like, and get on any later train. On certain routes, you can even get on the train one evening, have dinner, go to sleep, and wake up the next morning pulling into your destination with breakfast waiting for you. Train travel can be just as flexible as car travel over long distances, so long as the infrastructure exists and gets investment.
  - cr0sh 10y ago
    > Train travel can be just as flexible as car travel over long distances, so long as the infrastructure exists and gets investment. That's debatable. It can be comfortable and convenient, though I've never experienced it since we don't have much in the way of a train system for passenger rail here anymore. But I can see the allure. However, with a car, you can go anywhere you want on a whim. Want to get off the highway and take a random route up through the mountains to visit a random lake? No problem. Want to pop thru a small town via a connector road to a different freeway? Again not a problem. With public transportation or rail, you are limited to where the system runs, and if you want to get off somewhere along the way that doesn't have a station (for instance - just to randomly take in a scene) - well, you can't. Then again, one can't walk the length of a car, or get food and drink brought to your seat, or sleep in a comfortable bed overnight, etc. Also - most people don't travel super-long distances here by car (some do, many don't) - instead, if they can afford it, they take a plane. Airlines have effectively become our train system, for the good and bad it has to offer.
- bpyne 10y ago
  (American here.) Agreed on all statements, but I need to add the freedom to not pay an absurd amount of income toward insurance, maintenance, taxes, parking, etc. Automobiles are expensive and getting more so as technology gets added and taxes rise to support the roadway infrastructure for them.
hx87 10y ago
My body doesn't take much resources and effort to maintain, and in any case there is no alternative. My car on the other hand, consumes a significant portion of my resources, which constrains my freedom to spend its portion of my income on other things, or to not work for it altogether. > While I understand this intellectually (that is, I know that this is an American-centric thing, and that other societies in the world have a different view), I am curious how this view would be justified? How would you justify views, if not intellectually?
nickez 10y ago
> In America, part of the reason we feel this way is because of our vast travel distances compared to other areas of the world; it isn't unknown for people to commute to work over 50 miles (80 km) one way. Or to travel that far to go shopping. This is because your country/states/cities are designed that way. I live 15 minute walk from three grocery stores. About 10 minute on bike to work. I do have a car, which I use sometimes for long distance travel if public transport isn't available. But it is a huge cost both in mental capacity and money to keep that thing going. Like keeping it serviced and full on fuel and so on.. If you want to visit a friend and have a beer, do you take the car? How do you get home? In summary I do use a car maybe once or twice a month to go places, but if Uber made self-driving cars that could do those trips for me super-cheap then I would definitely sell my car. For me that would be freedom and like a sibling commenter said, even if you are using a car you heavily depend on others. > /also - I like to go off-road - 4-wheelin' in the dirt and mud I also actually enjoy driving, when I'm _not_ going from A to B. I don't see a reason to inhibit that..

by cr0sh 10y ago

aninhumer 10y ago

>So I guess I'm trying to understand the statement "it is freedom not to have a car"? It's the freedom to be able to get around without having to babysit a tonne of metal, and then find somewhere to put it when you get near where you're going, and then have to go back for it later. >How is it freedom not to have faster, longer distance personal transport? Decent public transport is faster and much more comfortable over long distances.

vertex-four 10y ago
> Decent public transport is faster and much more comfortable over long distances. Significantly! You can stand up and walk the whole length of a train if you desire without having to stop. There's food and drink brought right to your seat, and hot food if you walk to the buffet car or are in first class. In the UK, if you book a non-Advance ticket, you can get out of the train, leave the station, go wherever you like, and get on any later train. On certain routes, you can even get on the train one evening, have dinner, go to sleep, and wake up the next morning pulling into your destination with breakfast waiting for you. Train travel can be just as flexible as car travel over long distances, so long as the infrastructure exists and gets investment.
- cr0sh 10y ago
  > Train travel can be just as flexible as car travel over long distances, so long as the infrastructure exists and gets investment. That's debatable. It can be comfortable and convenient, though I've never experienced it since we don't have much in the way of a train system for passenger rail here anymore. But I can see the allure. However, with a car, you can go anywhere you want on a whim. Want to get off the highway and take a random route up through the mountains to visit a random lake? No problem. Want to pop thru a small town via a connector road to a different freeway? Again not a problem. With public transportation or rail, you are limited to where the system runs, and if you want to get off somewhere along the way that doesn't have a station (for instance - just to randomly take in a scene) - well, you can't. Then again, one can't walk the length of a car, or get food and drink brought to your seat, or sleep in a comfortable bed overnight, etc. Also - most people don't travel super-long distances here by car (some do, many don't) - instead, if they can afford it, they take a plane. Airlines have effectively become our train system, for the good and bad it has to offer.
bpyne 10y ago
(American here.) Agreed on all statements, but I need to add the freedom to not pay an absurd amount of income toward insurance, maintenance, taxes, parking, etc. Automobiles are expensive and getting more so as technology gets added and taxes rise to support the roadway infrastructure for them.

hx87 10y ago

My body doesn't take much resources and effort to maintain, and in any case there is no alternative. My car on the other hand, consumes a significant portion of my resources, which constrains my freedom to spend its portion of my income on other things, or to not work for it altogether. > While I understand this intellectually (that is, I know that this is an American-centric thing, and that other societies in the world have a different view), I am curious how this view would be justified? How would you justify views, if not intellectually?

nickez 10y ago

> In America, part of the reason we feel this way is because of our vast travel distances compared to other areas of the world; it isn't unknown for people to commute to work over 50 miles (80 km) one way. Or to travel that far to go shopping. This is because your country/states/cities are designed that way. I live 15 minute walk from three grocery stores. About 10 minute on bike to work. I do have a car, which I use sometimes for long distance travel if public transport isn't available. But it is a huge cost both in mental capacity and money to keep that thing going. Like keeping it serviced and full on fuel and so on.. If you want to visit a friend and have a beer, do you take the car? How do you get home? In summary I do use a car maybe once or twice a month to go places, but if Uber made self-driving cars that could do those trips for me super-cheap then I would definitely sell my car. For me that would be freedom and like a sibling commenter said, even if you are using a car you heavily depend on others. > /also - I like to go off-road - 4-wheelin' in the dirt and mud I also actually enjoy driving, when I'm _not_ going from A to B. I don't see a reason to inhibit that..