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Backpage Shuts Down Adult Ads in the U.S., Citing Government Pressure
- LeMec 10y agoIt don't think the Gov doing that will make a dent in online prostitution because everything is set up so quickly online (on a smart phone). They'll (sex workers) just set up posts in local ads and continue like nothing happened.
- xzel 10y agoI promise you its just on to the next website... I honestly wonder if the people that work these cases get tired or disheartened by their game of whack-a-mole.
- finid 10y agoOne would think that the govt has learnt something or two from the Prohibition and the war against drugs.
- ChrisBland 10y agoWhat they've learned is the more 'busts' they make; the more $$ they get in funding next year to buy new toys and employ more people 'fighting the good fight'.
- yarou 10y agoDon't forget the massive amounts of money to be made by colluding with the "bad guys". Collect double the amount if you collude for geopolitical purposes.
- TallGuyShort 10y agoI'd almost sympathize with that mindset if it wasn't for civil asset forfeiture.
- mtdewcmu 10y agoThe primary purpose of the WoD is to provide jobs to drug cops. The DEA is aware that if drugs become legal, there will no longer be a need for a Drug Enforcement Agency.
- ctvo 10y agoMust be a real hassle trying to shut down activities between consenting adults when there's an economic reason and no moral case. See recreational drug use.
- Pxtl 10y agoIt's only a matter of time until somebody manages to implement an easily-monetizable decentrialized CMS website that synchs the content across multiple nodes. There would be a lot of technical challenges like syncing accounts and managing decentralized moderation, but still - between piracy and prostitution and the like, there's a lot of money to be made hosting illegal content, and if law-enforcement crushes it where they find it then the obvious solution will be to develop a system that's impossible to shut down because it mirrors itself to new hosts trivially.
- hendersoon 10y agoWhy bother with decentralization when you can just put it on a Tor hidden service and get complete anonymity and protection? Only problem is your users need to pay with Bitcoin, but criminals are becoming increasingly used to that, and only the pimps pay, not the johns.
- Pxtl 10y agoBecause Tor is too hard for clients. The web always wins. Or are Tor hidden services able to be exposed on the public internet?
- hendersoon 10y agoYou can actually get to them without Tor via gateways, but my expectation is that sex service providers would install a Tor app on their phones to contact the hidden service. At that point it's a matter of tapping the Onion Browser icon instead of Chrome/Safari and going to a different bookmark.
- fencepost 10y agoAnd most likely the next (or the one after that) will be run by someone outside the USA, either in a place where cooperation with US authorities is unlikely or where prostitution is legal and thus any extradition requests (if anything got that far) would be less likely to be honored. Heck, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the next one run out of Russia, particularly if clients had to do some form of registration to get full access. Out of all the users you might get a few interesting email addresses worth tracking long-term, and you might even get reused passwords or at least a password pattern for some of those.
- brbsix 10y agoThat wouldn't be unheard of. There was a regional site in the SF Bay a few years back (myRedBook) registered out of Seychelles. Whole lot of good that did them though, since they still picked up their checks in the valley.
- prostoalex 10y agoThe government went after the payment processors. I suppose someone could run such site as a side hobby project, but end of the day it's a classifieds site, and it needs to accept money from those paying for classifieds.
- fencepost 10y agoYou're missing my other point in there - if you have the technical skills, language skills, and particularly mostly user-generated content (so you don't have to push much content of your own anyway), how much would you figure a site like that might cost to run on an annual basis? Seems to me that it could probably disappear into just the annual marketing budget of Durex, Trojans, with almost no notice, just to present one set of people also related to the sex industry. My bigger concern is that commercial entities (with their profit-driven motive and legal exposure) wouldn't be the only ones interested in the question of "Who's illegally hiring prostitutes AND do their hiring patterns indicate anything special about their interests?" A few hosted servers or VMs, some dedicated bandwidth in a few datacenters, a few cutouts and "private investors" backing it who don't actually care about making profits, and you have a priceless intelligence source about horny people - mostly of no interest at all, but a few potentially of great interest and value. What would be the worth of a Senator or Representative with embarrassing interests? It's not like elected officials ever get caught in airport bathrooms, diapers, or sending tacky selfies on Twitter.
- AndrewUnmuted 10y agoAlthough the act of soliciting prostitution is illegal, what exactly is so wrong about this really? Backpage appears to have provided listings that allowed consenting adults to engage in business with one another. Perhaps they just need to stop their mole-whacking game?
- elastic_church 10y agocombating trafficking in the framework of existing laws. trafficking does not imply consent. yes, the existing laws are broken.
- BorisMelnik 10y agounderage girls, and pimps taking advantage of drug addicted women. there are tons of "legit" agencies that operate as true businesses, the majority of the backpage listings are really sketchy. NSFW Check out this escort forum online, it gives some really interesting insight into the whole debacle. as you can see, most of the girls don't really care and are even glad: http://independentgirls.com/indiboard/index.php/topic/518200-backpage-shutdown/ http://independentgirls.com/indiboard/index.php/topic/518200... "Some criminals and low-life types formerly using Backpage will now go berserk without their money and/or their drugs. Violent crime in the streets. Unbelievable."
- cloakandswagger 10y agoWell, of course professional escorts are happy. Backpage was, at best, competition for them, allowing "independent contractors" to offer competing services for cheaper. At worst, it was a very popular sting site for cops, effectively scaring off customers in the area. When you're a "pro" with your own website and $600/hr price, Backpage is competition. I don't think they're happy about it because of concerns about human trafficking.
- prostoalex 10y agoYou are not thinking of this from the state AG point of view. Some participants of law enforcement community (FBI, US Attorneys) take years to build and execute their cases. When successful, they receive commendations and continue their law enforcement careers. State AGs are more of a "shoot from the hip" (or "sue early, sue often", since we're on HN) variety, as this elected post is viewed as a stepping stone towards another elected post, backed by the track record of "making neighborhoods safer". In unrelated news, congratulations to California state AG Kamala Harris on becoming a US Senator from the state of California.
- pnw_hazor 10y agoNot as long as their are federal grants to get their hands on.
- TallGuyShort 10y agoI've played whack-a-mole. I got to keep hitting moles. I didn't particularly want to eliminate the moles - because then I'd have to stop hitting them. P.S. The "massage" page currently on Backpage seems to just be veiled prostitution that suddenly got more posts starting today. So maybe it's not even on to the next site, just elsewhere on the site.
- Balgair 10y agoWell, I mean, if they did in fact get rid of it all, then they would not have a job to do anymore and then would be laid off. So......
- conductr 10y agoThere is a lot of $ at stake here. Why would BP not just move operations to another country with more favorable laws?
- junto 10y agoBecause the owners are most likely US based. That makes them still targets for law enforcement, regardless of where the site is hosted. There is a gap in the market for someone outside the US to offer such a service, but ideally that country has no extradition laws to the United States, nor should the owners of that website ever chose to visit the US. Gambling sites outside the US have experienced exactly this: https://www.cato.org/blog/uk-gambling-ceo-arrested-us-airport https://www.cato.org/blog/uk-gambling-ceo-arrested-us-airpor...
- fencepost 10y ago> There is a gap in the market for someone outside the US to offer such a service, There may be an even bigger gap for someone outside the US with no need to actually make a profit to offer such a service. Consider the merits of not just scanning the equivalent of the Ashley Madison database for sensitive addresses, but of actually controlling that database and being able to advertise in areas where you'd like to acquire users? I think it'd be fascinating to see if a new service springs up and gets advertised in the DC area.
- andrewclunn 10y agoThe best argument for legalizing prostitution is because then it will allow for a separation of it and child sex trafficing, effectively undercutting the black market while preventing those unscrupulous enough to promote it from hiding behind the purposefully vague adult escort services.
- jliptzin 10y agoPeople don't listen to logical arguments anymore.
- dexwiz 10y agoAnd they did at any point?
- chillwaves 10y agoAnd because women involved have no police protection as long as this is illegal. They will always be the most vulnerable members of society afraid to get help.
- cassieramen 10y agoThe other side of this is that victims of sex trafficking are often so emotionally attached to their pimp that arrest is sometimes the only way to separate them and force them to talk to a counselor. These women are often mentally impaired or were very young when they began "dating" (working for) their pimp. Convincing them to not just leave but testify against the person clothing, feeding, and sheltering them is a tall task.
- weeksie 10y agoOh good. We should crack down on sites like this because you know what was good for sex trafficking victims? Street pimps. Sigh.
- tptacek 10y agoWhat makes you think the people posting backpages ads aren't trafficked as well? The reason we don't have "street pimps" isn't that backpages got rid of them; it's that we don't really have street anything anymore --- it's economically irrational in a world where even the poorest among us have smart phones.
- chillwaves 10y agoIt seems like the full protection of the law is the only rational and humane way forward. It is time to legalize prostitution in America.
- tomp 10y agoSo... what service do pimps still provide in the age of the smartphone?
- tptacek 10y agoThe same "service" they've always provided: mafia-style protection. Sex workers didn't suddenly become less vulnerable simply because they're posting Craigslist ads.
- tomp 10y agoWouldn't be better if that protection was provided by the police?
- tptacek 10y agoCeteris paribus (though remember there's a long and ugly history of the police victimizing sex workers as well). But all things aren't equal. Most importantly: so long as prostitution is formally illegal, men and women can't be pressured by social norms to participate in sex work. Once prostitution is legalized, the stage is set for that to change: perhaps body integrity isn't nearly as important as bootstrapping oneself to self-reliance, or providing for vulnerable family members. Usually in economic analyses we stop and ask ourselves if normal people would prefer the choice rather than having it foisted on them: for instance, maybe we'd rather allow ticket scalping because someone with a valuable ticket would probably prefer the option of being able to sell it for a steep profit and pay for health care rather than just having the experience promised by the ticket. But here we have a case where most normal people probably do not want the choice deregulation would allow.
- kyledrake 10y agoI am waiting for the legal process before coming to any conclusions. The government thinks they have a case to argue that Backpage does not receive safe harbor protections, and the only way that is possible is if they can prove Backpage was knowingly promoting sex trafficking. Which means they probably have some evidence to suggest that.
- ipsin 10y agoWhat legal process -- or specifically, what court case(s) -- are you referring to? My understanding was that the owners had beat pimping charges [1] using a CDA defense, and I didn't know what else they still have to contend with. [1] http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/10/backpage-leaders-beat-pimping-charges-as http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/10/backpage-leaders-beat-pimp...
- kyledrake 10y agoThanks for the update, I was under the impression the court case was still ongoing. Looks like the judge threw it out on safe harbor (Section 230) grounds.
- clavalle 10y agoThis is a Very Good Thing. I know that it is currently in vogue, with the libertarian current in our society and in the tech world in particular, to ask why prostitution should be illegal. People should have control over their own bodies, shouldn't they? Here is the answer: many of the people selling their sexual services are not in control of their bodies. Beyond the obvious example of people forced into it by violence, there is also a huge population of people that are trying to feed themselves, or their kids, or their addictions with very few options to achieve those ends. That is not liberty. If it were true that everyone is absolutely free to choose to engage themselves in such a way with no whiff of active or passive coercion by individuals or their circumstances, sure, they should have the choice. But when the choice is 'do this thing or die, or be in pain' that is no real choice. This industry needs to connect to customers. Sure, something else might pop up, but at least there won't be a central repository for a while. Hopefully that makes it a less viable.
- joering2 10y ago> Beyond the obvious example of people forced into it by violence, there is also a huge population of people that are trying to feed themselves, or their kids, or their addictions. Any you are exactly WHO to tell them it is not okay to do this or that with their OWN body ???
- tptacek 10y agoWhere do you draw the line? Should people be able to sell their kidneys? How about retinas? How about both kidneys? It's their body, after all.
- pavel_lishin 10y agoI don't know if I agree with their arguments, but people have argued that people should be able to sell kidneys. Currently, this is illegal - people end up forming "donation chains" to spread the availability of organs.
- 10y ago
- momentmaker 10y agoWhat's the difference between this and a sugar baby site like seeking arrangements?
- cmdrfred 10y agoWindow dressing.
- iaw 10y agoBackpage offered prostitution arrangements. Sugar babies, in spite of what people think, aren't prostitutes. It's just that girls that don't sleep with their sponsors tend to lose their sponsors. Also, think about what type of men can have sugar babies vs. what type of men engage in regular prostitution and there's a class based argument that emerges.
- jonlucc 10y agoIf the girls that don't sleep with their sponsors inevitably lose their sponsors, I think there is likely a legal case to be made that that is prostitution. The same could be said of canonical prostitution: some people pay prostitutes to talk and/or cuddle, but if they don't have sex, they will surely eventually lose clients.
- iaw 10y agoCan the sponsor expect a return of their money/goods if sex is not provided? The answer to that is no, which is why I draw the distinction.
- hendersoon 10y agoI'm sure they have a conversation at some point, and that conversation ends in an exchange of money for sex, even if they skirt around calling it that. Not that there aren't men who sign up to a sugar baby site, date much younger very attractive girls, pay them, and don't have sex with them. I'm sure that exists too, but only because the client really doesn't want that service.
- mundo 10y agoHang on. The CEO and two board members were arrested and charged with pimping three months ago, and they're just now taking down the ads? That is some dedication to free speech, I guess... (The rationale was that, since the site has tools to help posters write their posts, the site owners were in a "conspiracy" with the authors of illegal posts. (Edit - that's not very accurate, see below))
- hendersoon 10y agoNo, if you read the senate complaint, backpage employees actually EDITED posts to make them less obvious advertisements for illegal activity. And that clearly breaks safe harbour.
- saycheese 10y agoTo be fair, the Senate complaint is not evidence, it's a complaint.
- hendersoon 10y agoRight, they're allegations and don't contain the actual evidence upon which those allegations are founded. I would take them with a pinch of salt until seeing the actual evidence. But just a pinch; the excerpts and descriptions are very clear, non-ambiguous, and you would basically need to believe the senate was plain-faced lying to go too far down that road.
- mundo 10y agoThanks for clarifying that, you're right, I just assumed the "editing" the article mentioned was referring to a site feature.
- jandrese 10y agoDidn't that argument fall completely on its face in court?
- hendersoon 10y ago
- youdontknowtho 10y agoReading the thoughts of middle class, white collar, programmers on crime are always entertaining.
- bdcravens 10y agoBy definition all programmers tend to be middle class due to the job. Just because you're middle class now means you've always been there and have been insulated from the "real" world.
- youdontknowtho 10y agoBy and large middle class people have lots of misconceptions about crime.
- youdontknowtho 10y agolike it or not, most middle class people only know about crime from television. Most of them have never been victims, much less perpetrators, of crimes.
- kirykl 10y agoThis whole thread reads like the women posting to Backpages have no agency in their lives. I'd much prefer to hear from them on the issue
- jraines 10y agoif you go on Twitter & look at people who at least claim to be either advocates of sex workers or sex workers themselves, they say mostly the same things. This isn't to say all programmer opinions are good -- see the depression thread that's on the FP now.
- peterwwillis 10y agoPlease don't be fooled into believing the government had some altruistic motivator to do this. This is simply politicians and government agencies buying political capital by hurting morally-offensive sections of society which they keep illegal so they can have more sway over their real target: the moral majority. The only reason to keep prostitution illegal (and pornography legal) is the moral argument that actually having sex is a sin (and "not classy") whereas just looking at sex is more of a minor inconvenience morally. By shutting down businesses like these they get the support (monetary and politically) of the moral majority. Business as usual.
- raitom 10y agoThe US government should implement a regulated alternative like in Germany with their FKK.
- hendersoon 10y agoOh no, they shutdown a site on the internet. That'll work! Shutting down backpage.com was obviously a mistake. It was a centralized location to advertise illegal services. Everybody knew it existed, it was hosted, owned, and financed in the US and subject to court orders and subpeonas. Now another site will pop up shortly, either in a jurisdiction that doesn't answer to US law enforcement or, eventually, as a Tor hidden service. Prostitution and human trafficking volume won't be impacted except in the very shortest of terms. Just a stupid self-defeating response from our politicians. The right answer would have been to leave Backpage's sex services classifieds up and pay for law enforcement to review the site on a regular basis. Control and regulate. Don't force your primary information asset to relocate to a less accessible location.
- devoply 10y agoThe responsible thing to do with be to legalize and regulate prostitution for the safety of the sex workers. That would be responsible thing to do. To bring what's going to happen anyway under control so you can properly police for minors, rather than worry about people who choose to sell themselves.
- hendersoon 10y agoI completely agree. Thing is, even remaining constrained by current law assuming stopping prostitution is just and right, they /still/ went about it entirely the wrong way. Ultimately this will lead to a complete loss of control, more prostitution, and more trafficked/coerced people.
- madgar 10y agoIt isn't so simple when the voting public wants to see laws enforced. A lot of people consider it a betrayal of public trust to selectively enforce laws, or to outright ignore them. A lot of Americans are hoping that the next federal government will crack down on states flouting federal laws regarding marijuana, for example. (No, prostitution isn't a federal crime. I know that. It's an example.)
- 10y ago
- bdcravens 10y agoWith this added opportunity, how long until it's added to Uber? /s
- yarou 10y agoDoes anyone know if this is another Megaupload situation? Are there records showing the site operators willfully colluded and incentivized street pimps and sex traffickers? Or is this another "save the children" chilling effect on free speech?
- gonz702 10y agothing i dont get is why take down the adult jobs and phone and websites section got paid ads on there guess everyone is sol