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AFAIK there are no cars yet that are _truly_ levels 4 or 5. Both Google and Tesla's cars strive towards that goal, but SAE level 4 requires that the system perf

by Ajedi32 10y ago

AFAIK there are no cars yet that are _truly_ levels 4 or 5. Both Google and Tesla's cars strive towards that goal, but SAE level 4 requires that the system perform ["all aspects of the dynamic driving task, _even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene_"][1]. (Emphasis mine.) So until you can fall asleep at the wheel without endangering yourself or other passengers, neither of those cars are at level 4. Level 5 has even more stringent requirements, requiring ["the full-time performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver"][1]. So until a car can autonomously drive in snow and other less-than-ideal conditions, it's not level 5. [1]: https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

Fricken 10y ago
The NHTSA originally designated a 0-4 system for classifying Autonomous vehicles. Then the SAE (engineers love adding features) added Level 5. When the NHTSA adopted the SAE system, they reworded the description of Level 5 to what you've quoted. And seriously, it's a meaningless designation. To have a driverless car that perform as well as an expert human driver in all conditions will take decades, it may require something approximating sci-fi grade AGI to pull it off. There are situations when driving that require creativity and generalist knowledge that is completely outside the bounds of what AI can do. There's no point in discussing L5 realistically, nobody is anywhere close to pulling it off.
- ghaff 10y ago
  I agree and, yet, you need something at least very close to that before you can have cars without anybody in them shuttling around to pick up people or deliver a pizza. (Which is why anyone who thinks they're going to be able to hail a roboUber in Manhattan within a decade is... optimistic.) I suppose you can construct really elaborate corner cases that you might give a car a pass on. And maybe there are ways to make things like construction zones easier for cars to navigate. But, yeah, for the most part, the computer is going to have to handle any driving situation a typical human would be able to.
  - Fricken 10y ago
    It'll be a while before the human is completely out of the loop, but Waymo has filed a patent for 'remote assistance in low confidence situations', and many of the companies pursuing robotaxis have signalled similar initiatives.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      The handoff speed is an issue as is the fact that the vehicle would have to recognize a problem in order to ask for help. But, yes, some sort of remote assistance system would seem to be one solution to at least certain edge cases.
alkonaut 10y ago
Add to that the requirement to work without up to date map data, with inputs that require reading and understanding written text on road signs etc. To drive as a human in all situations you basically have to be human. You need to be able to understand the world like a human. Example: a highway has one side closed for roadwork. It's dark and it's snowing. At the start of the construction work there is a sign that says "wait at this point for escort car". The text might be partially covered in snow. When the escort car arrives it leads the queue of waiting cars past the road construction, in the oncoming lane. A human driver understands that the right thing to do is wait at the sign. If the sign isn't readable because of snow, the driver just gets out and brushes off the snow. The human driver understands which car is the escort car because of its markings and behavior. The human driver understands the reason the escort car is there is because traffic has to take turns in the same lane and there are no traffic lights. Even when a human driver encounters this for the first time, it will realize what's going on (it confused me the first time). I'm not sure it would even be possible to teach an autonomous agent to adapt to any unknown situation where the information is lacking, incomplete or conflicting.
wrsh07 10y ago
Well, Waymo's car drove a legally blind man as the only passenger: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/blind-man-sets-out-alone-in-googles-driverless-car/2016/12/13/f523ef42-c13d-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/bli... So it seems like they're pretty close to L4.

by Ajedi32 10y ago

Fricken 10y ago

The NHTSA originally designated a 0-4 system for classifying Autonomous vehicles. Then the SAE (engineers love adding features) added Level 5. When the NHTSA adopted the SAE system, they reworded the description of Level 5 to what you've quoted. And seriously, it's a meaningless designation. To have a driverless car that perform as well as an expert human driver in all conditions will take decades, it may require something approximating sci-fi grade AGI to pull it off. There are situations when driving that require creativity and generalist knowledge that is completely outside the bounds of what AI can do. There's no point in discussing L5 realistically, nobody is anywhere close to pulling it off.

ghaff 10y ago
I agree and, yet, you need something at least very close to that before you can have cars without anybody in them shuttling around to pick up people or deliver a pizza. (Which is why anyone who thinks they're going to be able to hail a roboUber in Manhattan within a decade is... optimistic.) I suppose you can construct really elaborate corner cases that you might give a car a pass on. And maybe there are ways to make things like construction zones easier for cars to navigate. But, yeah, for the most part, the computer is going to have to handle any driving situation a typical human would be able to.
- Fricken 10y ago
  It'll be a while before the human is completely out of the loop, but Waymo has filed a patent for 'remote assistance in low confidence situations', and many of the companies pursuing robotaxis have signalled similar initiatives.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    The handoff speed is an issue as is the fact that the vehicle would have to recognize a problem in order to ask for help. But, yes, some sort of remote assistance system would seem to be one solution to at least certain edge cases.

alkonaut 10y ago

Add to that the requirement to work without up to date map data, with inputs that require reading and understanding written text on road signs etc. To drive as a human in all situations you basically have to be human. You need to be able to understand the world like a human. Example: a highway has one side closed for roadwork. It's dark and it's snowing. At the start of the construction work there is a sign that says "wait at this point for escort car". The text might be partially covered in snow. When the escort car arrives it leads the queue of waiting cars past the road construction, in the oncoming lane. A human driver understands that the right thing to do is wait at the sign. If the sign isn't readable because of snow, the driver just gets out and brushes off the snow. The human driver understands which car is the escort car because of its markings and behavior. The human driver understands the reason the escort car is there is because traffic has to take turns in the same lane and there are no traffic lights. Even when a human driver encounters this for the first time, it will realize what's going on (it confused me the first time). I'm not sure it would even be possible to teach an autonomous agent to adapt to any unknown situation where the information is lacking, incomplete or conflicting.

wrsh07 10y ago

Well, Waymo's car drove a legally blind man as the only passenger: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/blind-man-sets-out-alone-in-googles-driverless-car/2016/12/13/f523ef42-c13d-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/bli... So it seems like they're pretty close to L4.