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The argument about "the Joker being the hero" reminds me of a Borges short story, "Three versions of Judas." In the story, Borges recounts a (fictional) theolo

by tps5 10y ago

The argument about "the Joker being the hero" reminds me of a Borges short story, "Three versions of Judas." In the story, Borges recounts a (fictional) theologian's slow realization that, in the New Testament story, it was Judas rather than Jesus who made the greatest sacrifice. Following this argument, this theologian eventually comes to the conclusion that Judas was the incarnation of God, not Jesus. Without Judas, he argues, the redemption of Man could not have occurred. Unsurprisingly, the Church doesn't like this version of the story and Borges' fictional theologian dies in anonymity.

stinkytaco 10y ago
>Unsurprisingly, the Church doesn't like this version of the story and Borges' fictional theologian dies in anonymity. A diversion: Judas is the representation of one of the great dividers in Christianity. To forgive Judas is to deny free will. One of the things that one could take away from the gospels is that choices were made a consequences occurred. If it hadn't been Judas it would have been Peter, and so on. Judas was not acting as an agent. Catholics believe in free will and they believe in punishment (penance, purgatory, etc.). Luther, and many protestant sects, do not believe in free will as such. Either is there is no free will, or if there is, forgiveness more or less wipes it out. The reason I mention this is that I can really see the influence of protestant thinking in Western society. The tendency to look at all actors as part of a larger "system" rather than individuals with agency that may or may not deserve punishment or reward based strictly on their merit. I find that interesting given this discussion. There's acknowledgment of dealing with individual choices, but as part of creating an optimal systemic outcome. EDIT: This is also one of the reasons studying literature is an important effort. It gives us something of a window into a cultural world view. Here I'm reminded of the Iliad. Our tendency today is to admire Hector, but the Greeks would not have. He was part of a city and that city had sinned. There are no individuals. Fatalism is strong in Greek literature. It doesn't matter how good or bad a person you are.

by tps5 10y ago

stinkytaco 10y ago

>Unsurprisingly, the Church doesn't like this version of the story and Borges' fictional theologian dies in anonymity. A diversion: Judas is the representation of one of the great dividers in Christianity. To forgive Judas is to deny free will. One of the things that one could take away from the gospels is that choices were made a consequences occurred. If it hadn't been Judas it would have been Peter, and so on. Judas was not acting as an agent. Catholics believe in free will and they believe in punishment (penance, purgatory, etc.). Luther, and many protestant sects, do not believe in free will as such. Either is there is no free will, or if there is, forgiveness more or less wipes it out. The reason I mention this is that I can really see the influence of protestant thinking in Western society. The tendency to look at all actors as part of a larger "system" rather than individuals with agency that may or may not deserve punishment or reward based strictly on their merit. I find that interesting given this discussion. There's acknowledgment of dealing with individual choices, but as part of creating an optimal systemic outcome. EDIT: This is also one of the reasons studying literature is an important effort. It gives us something of a window into a cultural world view. Here I'm reminded of the Iliad. Our tendency today is to admire Hector, but the Greeks would not have. He was part of a city and that city had sinned. There are no individuals. Fatalism is strong in Greek literature. It doesn't matter how good or bad a person you are.