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It's worse than that even. According to https://developer.apple.com/macos/touch-bar/ https://developer.apple.com/macos/touch-bar/ > "The all-new Touch Bar revo

by harryf 10y ago

It's worse than that even. According to https://developer.apple.com/macos/touch-bar/ https://developer.apple.com/macos/touch-bar/ > "The all-new Touch Bar revolutionizes the keyboard experience by bringing dynamic controls to your fingertips. This Multi-Touch Retina display at the top of the new MacBook Pro keyboard changes depending on what the user does in your app, so you can surface context-specific features and controls." ...except anyone who can type will almost _never_ look at their fingers when typing. And what type of people can type? People that own laptops with names ending in "Pro". Touchbar doesn't make sense from any perspective Disclaimer: I have a Macbook Pro with Touchbar. Right now it's connected to a monitor and I'm using an external keyboard...

rayiner 10y ago
You're missing an important step in that chain of logical reasoning. What percentage of people who touch type also touch type the function keys? I can use Emacs pretty well in the terminal, but I don't think I could name the function keys even for Safari.
- minitech 10y ago
  I use the function keys for operations available anywhere (backlight brightness, keyboard brightness, media control). (Isn’t that the default on macOS?)
- criddell 10y ago
  I'm on a Windows machine, so maybe it's different, but I definitely touch type on the function keys. The ones I use daily are F1 for help, F2 for next bookmark, F3 for search, F5 for run, etc... Volume up and down are Fn+F10 and Fn+F11. Browser if Fn-F1, email is Fn-F2, and so on. At one point Lenovo had a machine with a touch bar like Apple has now and I believe it was widely panned by users.
  - jacobush 10y ago
    I touch typed on Fn keys back in the fullsize desktop keyboard days. IBM and Logitech. Then all keys except ASCII keys started to move around in new and unique ways on all laptops and "multimedia enabled" keyboards.
    - criddell 10y ago
      That's true. I use three different keyboards and can move between them easily now. When I trade in for a new computer, it usually takes me a couple of weeks before I'm back up to speed on the new keyboard. I'll never be as fast on a (small) laptop keyboard because of the missing numeric keypad.
  - addicted 10y ago
    This is a huge difference between Windows and Mac. MacOS doesn't use Fn keys for shortcuts half as much as windows. When I'm on Windows I touch type Fn keys all the time. Almost never do that on the Mac.
- harryf 10y ago
  Yes OK but... Right now Touch Bar plus Safari is offering itself as an alternative to the Safari's own tab-bar showing available tabs as keys which can be pressed - this screenshot shows it - http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2016/11/mbp-touchbar3.jpg http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2016/11/mbp-touchbar3.jpg Currently, without Touch Bar, it's a small eye movement to Safari's tab-bar to see what else is open then using shortcuts like "Ctrl + Tab" or "Shift + Cmd + [" to jump between tabs. With Touch Bar the alternative is a long eye movement to the keyboard, scanning the tiny thumbs to figure out what each one represents, then tapping the right one - which probably means taking the left hand off it's normal position on the keyboard, then returning eye back to screen. Productivity-wise this is similar to the old keyboard vs. mouse discussion ( https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-keyboard-vs-the-mouse-pt-1/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-keyboard-vs-the-mou... ) but it's the Macbook Pro we're talking about. Slowing down to look at the Touch Bar to me this is not a thing a "Pro" is ever going to want to do. Perhaps Touch Bar has a place on some of the other Macbook product lines, where you're more likely to have people that look at their hands frequently when typing. But IMHO not the Macbook Pro...
epistasis 10y ago
What you're missing is that the touchbar is right next to the screen. Obviously you're not going to be using the touchbar with an external keyboard, but when you're using the built in keyboard and the built in screen it's perfectly within reach and within sight. As far as looking at the keys while typing, look at the popularity of backlit keyboard keys. People seem to love them (I don't), and that's because it helps them get oriented.

by harryf 10y ago

rayiner 10y ago

You're missing an important step in that chain of logical reasoning. What percentage of people who touch type also touch type the function keys? I can use Emacs pretty well in the terminal, but I don't think I could name the function keys even for Safari.

minitech 10y ago
I use the function keys for operations available anywhere (backlight brightness, keyboard brightness, media control). (Isn’t that the default on macOS?)
criddell 10y ago
I'm on a Windows machine, so maybe it's different, but I definitely touch type on the function keys. The ones I use daily are F1 for help, F2 for next bookmark, F3 for search, F5 for run, etc... Volume up and down are Fn+F10 and Fn+F11. Browser if Fn-F1, email is Fn-F2, and so on. At one point Lenovo had a machine with a touch bar like Apple has now and I believe it was widely panned by users.
- jacobush 10y ago
  I touch typed on Fn keys back in the fullsize desktop keyboard days. IBM and Logitech. Then all keys except ASCII keys started to move around in new and unique ways on all laptops and "multimedia enabled" keyboards.
  - criddell 10y ago
    That's true. I use three different keyboards and can move between them easily now. When I trade in for a new computer, it usually takes me a couple of weeks before I'm back up to speed on the new keyboard. I'll never be as fast on a (small) laptop keyboard because of the missing numeric keypad.
- addicted 10y ago
  This is a huge difference between Windows and Mac. MacOS doesn't use Fn keys for shortcuts half as much as windows. When I'm on Windows I touch type Fn keys all the time. Almost never do that on the Mac.
harryf 10y ago
Yes OK but... Right now Touch Bar plus Safari is offering itself as an alternative to the Safari's own tab-bar showing available tabs as keys which can be pressed - this screenshot shows it - http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2016/11/mbp-touchbar3.jpg http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2016/11/mbp-touchbar3.jpg Currently, without Touch Bar, it's a small eye movement to Safari's tab-bar to see what else is open then using shortcuts like "Ctrl + Tab" or "Shift + Cmd + [" to jump between tabs. With Touch Bar the alternative is a long eye movement to the keyboard, scanning the tiny thumbs to figure out what each one represents, then tapping the right one - which probably means taking the left hand off it's normal position on the keyboard, then returning eye back to screen. Productivity-wise this is similar to the old keyboard vs. mouse discussion ( https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-keyboard-vs-the-mouse-pt-1/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/revisiting-keyboard-vs-the-mou... ) but it's the Macbook Pro we're talking about. Slowing down to look at the Touch Bar to me this is not a thing a "Pro" is ever going to want to do. Perhaps Touch Bar has a place on some of the other Macbook product lines, where you're more likely to have people that look at their hands frequently when typing. But IMHO not the Macbook Pro...

epistasis 10y ago

What you're missing is that the touchbar is right next to the screen. Obviously you're not going to be using the touchbar with an external keyboard, but when you're using the built in keyboard and the built in screen it's perfectly within reach and within sight. As far as looking at the keys while typing, look at the popularity of backlit keyboard keys. People seem to love them (I don't), and that's because it helps them get oriented.