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There's several obvious reasons: 1. Every time someone brings this up other people say "It's fine." and it really isn't fine. 2. We want Apple to hear that th

by ebbv 10y ago

There's several obvious reasons: 1. Every time someone brings this up other people say "It's fine." and it really isn't fine. 2. We want Apple to hear that their core customers are unhappy and they should rethink the current course for their hardware. I love Apple computers but they currently don't provide a serious upgrade option for my 2012 15" rMBP. The 2016 15" is a joke by comparison.

zimpenfish 10y ago
> their core customers are unhappy I honestly don't think HN posters (nor bloggers) are anywhere near Apple's "core customers" - that's the millions of people who just want something workable from a shop they trust, not a few thousand (being optimistic) forum posters and bloggers. e.g. After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already-set-to-surpass-2015-macbook/ https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already...
- Gigablah 10y ago
  I can't even begin to read that graph. "Indexed revenue" instead of number of units sold? "n=16,754 online shoppers" but the article says "panel of 4.4 million online shoppers"?
- ebbv 10y ago
  Developers are the core customers for MacBook Pros. In volume the Air used to be the top seller, because yes there are more people who just want "a computer" that works and don't care about specs and won't look at battery life, etc. before buying. But do you know what those people base their purchasing decisions on? The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. I can't tell you how many people have moved over to Apple computers on my recommendations over the years. It's a lot. Right now I have a hard time recommending the 2016 models. If people can get a refurbished 2015 on the cheap I honestly think it's a better choice. > After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. This statistic is very popular but it's also extremely misleading. Everybody knew the lineup was due for a refresh so 2015 sales were lagging because of that, the higher numbers represent a dam of pent up purchases waiting for upgrades bursting. It's like pointing out that the number of people complaining about the 2016 models is way higher than the people complaining about the 2015 models. Of course it is. That doesn't tell the whole story and is somewhat misleading on its own. My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Apple needs to really re-examine. The current 13" and 15" MBP models should be the base "MacBook" models, and they should come out with a serious pro machine and label it as such (which restores MagSafe and has higher battery life.) The TouchBar should just be thrown off a bridge. It's a terrible gimmicky attempt at stuffing a touch screen onto a laptop.
  - zimpenfish 10y ago
    > The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. None of the non-technical people I know (and I'll admit that's a small number) who buy Apple kit do not take recommendations from developers and engineers because they're non-technical people - they don't read HN or tech blogs. They look at things like Which? reviews or BBC think pieces or that glossy insert that comes with the Sunday paper. Or they go into an Apple store where they can touch the machines, use them for browsing the web, get answers to their questions (ok, bit slow at peak times) vs something like a PC World where you can't use the machine or they don't have that particular model in stock despite it being on display or there's no-one around to answer your question or you can't tell which particular constellation of stickers on the laptop means it'll work for you or ... > Apple needs to [...] People have been saying this since 2005. They're still here, printing money. shrug
    - elexotico 10y ago
      > People have been saying this since 2005. They're still here, printing money. shrug I am sure someone, somewhere, said the same thing about Blackberry some years ago. :)
  - swombat 10y ago
    > My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Also don't forget returns. Which is what I'm going to do with my top spec MBP 15". Oh well.
sambe 10y ago
I don't think it's so obvious. Most people seem to be obsessing about the Touch Bar, which really doesn't seem like a deal-breaker to me (caveat: haven't tried it), especially with models available with real keys. If you'd only skim the comments you'd definitely be left with the impression that a bigger than warranted fuss is being made. However, this is the first time I've been aware that battery life is genuinely crippled. My perception since just after launch was "occasional problem due to Safari bug".
- mathw 10y ago
  Well, you can't get a 15" model with real function keys, and the model with real function keys doesn't have as many USB-C ports. Which are the only ports (other than the headphone socket), so quite important.
- pyrophane 10y ago
  While only the base model 13 is available without a touch bar, I don't consider it to be a deal-breaker at all. At worst for me it is this thing that I have mostly learned not to accidentally hit while typing and occasionally find useful. On the battery issues: the battery in the new MBP is (I think) up to 30% smaller compared to the previous generation. To balance that, Apple is using displays that consume less power. The problem there is that the CPU still consumes the same amount of power under load. I think most devs have experienced the rapid battery drain that comes from running CPU intensive tasks. Given all of this, the results of his tests don't really surprise me.
  - sambe 10y ago
    Today I'm reading (again) that the only battery issues are a Safari bug (which is bad at release, but presumably easily rectified). Is the CPU not also more efficient, or is the bug in power-saving, so load remains the same?
dkonofalski 10y ago
This is completely anecdotal, but I work with several clients that all just refreshed their entire hardware stock with the new MacBook Pros for a good percentage of their employees (if not for every employee). The only people I've yet to hear complain about the Touch Bar or the computers in general are people on HN and Reddit. Every person I've interacted with that has used it loves the Touch Bar and a not-insignificant population of those people are developers. To say that "core customers are unhappy" is a gross generalization that, to me, doesn't have any basis in reality.
- elexotico 10y ago
  Though I might agree with your general conclusion, saying that the reactions you do see on reddit and HN "don't have any basis in reality" by using your, significantly smaller, closed circle of people with whom you interacted as comparison sounds wrong. You have the experience of your personal circle and the experience of reading online critiques and comments - they both suffer from the same "go with the flow" disadvantages, yet the second one is possibly much larger, diverse and informed.
jaxondu 10y ago
For Apple the TouchBar model is selling well. So I predict by the end of the year all MacBook and MacBook Pro notebooks are TouchBar only. No option for physical function key model. And they will kill MacBook Air
- ashark 10y ago
  I wonder how much of that is due to crippling the fn key 2016 MBP (only 2 ports[?!?!], different CPU, no 15" model) rather than people actually being willing to pay extra for the touchbar per se. [EDIT] not that it makes a difference to their revenue immediately, but I wouldn't take touchbar mac purchases as expressions of love of/interest in the touchbar.

by ebbv 10y ago

zimpenfish 10y ago

> their core customers are unhappy I honestly don't think HN posters (nor bloggers) are anywhere near Apple's "core customers" - that's the millions of people who just want something workable from a shop they trust, not a few thousand (being optimistic) forum posters and bloggers. e.g. After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already-set-to-surpass-2015-macbook/ https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already...

Gigablah 10y ago
I can't even begin to read that graph. "Indexed revenue" instead of number of units sold? "n=16,754 online shoppers" but the article says "panel of 4.4 million online shoppers"?
ebbv 10y ago
Developers are the core customers for MacBook Pros. In volume the Air used to be the top seller, because yes there are more people who just want "a computer" that works and don't care about specs and won't look at battery life, etc. before buying. But do you know what those people base their purchasing decisions on? The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. I can't tell you how many people have moved over to Apple computers on my recommendations over the years. It's a lot. Right now I have a hard time recommending the 2016 models. If people can get a refurbished 2015 on the cheap I honestly think it's a better choice. > After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. This statistic is very popular but it's also extremely misleading. Everybody knew the lineup was due for a refresh so 2015 sales were lagging because of that, the higher numbers represent a dam of pent up purchases waiting for upgrades bursting. It's like pointing out that the number of people complaining about the 2016 models is way higher than the people complaining about the 2015 models. Of course it is. That doesn't tell the whole story and is somewhat misleading on its own. My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Apple needs to really re-examine. The current 13" and 15" MBP models should be the base "MacBook" models, and they should come out with a serious pro machine and label it as such (which restores MagSafe and has higher battery life.) The TouchBar should just be thrown off a bridge. It's a terrible gimmicky attempt at stuffing a touch screen onto a laptop.
- zimpenfish 10y ago
  > The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. None of the non-technical people I know (and I'll admit that's a small number) who buy Apple kit do not take recommendations from developers and engineers because they're non-technical people - they don't read HN or tech blogs. They look at things like Which? reviews or BBC think pieces or that glossy insert that comes with the Sunday paper. Or they go into an Apple store where they can touch the machines, use them for browsing the web, get answers to their questions (ok, bit slow at peak times) vs something like a PC World where you can't use the machine or they don't have that particular model in stock despite it being on display or there's no-one around to answer your question or you can't tell which particular constellation of stickers on the laptop means it'll work for you or ... > Apple needs to [...] People have been saying this since 2005. They're still here, printing money. shrug
  - elexotico 10y ago
    > People have been saying this since 2005. They're still here, printing money. shrug I am sure someone, somewhere, said the same thing about Blackberry some years ago. :)
- swombat 10y ago
  > My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Also don't forget returns. Which is what I'm going to do with my top spec MBP 15". Oh well.

sambe 10y ago

I don't think it's so obvious. Most people seem to be obsessing about the Touch Bar, which really doesn't seem like a deal-breaker to me (caveat: haven't tried it), especially with models available with real keys. If you'd only skim the comments you'd definitely be left with the impression that a bigger than warranted fuss is being made. However, this is the first time I've been aware that battery life is genuinely crippled. My perception since just after launch was "occasional problem due to Safari bug".

mathw 10y ago
Well, you can't get a 15" model with real function keys, and the model with real function keys doesn't have as many USB-C ports. Which are the only ports (other than the headphone socket), so quite important.
pyrophane 10y ago
While only the base model 13 is available without a touch bar, I don't consider it to be a deal-breaker at all. At worst for me it is this thing that I have mostly learned not to accidentally hit while typing and occasionally find useful. On the battery issues: the battery in the new MBP is (I think) up to 30% smaller compared to the previous generation. To balance that, Apple is using displays that consume less power. The problem there is that the CPU still consumes the same amount of power under load. I think most devs have experienced the rapid battery drain that comes from running CPU intensive tasks. Given all of this, the results of his tests don't really surprise me.
- sambe 10y ago
  Today I'm reading (again) that the only battery issues are a Safari bug (which is bad at release, but presumably easily rectified). Is the CPU not also more efficient, or is the bug in power-saving, so load remains the same?

dkonofalski 10y ago

This is completely anecdotal, but I work with several clients that all just refreshed their entire hardware stock with the new MacBook Pros for a good percentage of their employees (if not for every employee). The only people I've yet to hear complain about the Touch Bar or the computers in general are people on HN and Reddit. Every person I've interacted with that has used it loves the Touch Bar and a not-insignificant population of those people are developers. To say that "core customers are unhappy" is a gross generalization that, to me, doesn't have any basis in reality.

elexotico 10y ago
Though I might agree with your general conclusion, saying that the reactions you do see on reddit and HN "don't have any basis in reality" by using your, significantly smaller, closed circle of people with whom you interacted as comparison sounds wrong. You have the experience of your personal circle and the experience of reading online critiques and comments - they both suffer from the same "go with the flow" disadvantages, yet the second one is possibly much larger, diverse and informed.

jaxondu 10y ago

For Apple the TouchBar model is selling well. So I predict by the end of the year all MacBook and MacBook Pro notebooks are TouchBar only. No option for physical function key model. And they will kill MacBook Air

ashark 10y ago
I wonder how much of that is due to crippling the fn key 2016 MBP (only 2 ports[?!?!], different CPU, no 15" model) rather than people actually being willing to pay extra for the touchbar per se. [EDIT] not that it makes a difference to their revenue immediately, but I wouldn't take touchbar mac purchases as expressions of love of/interest in the touchbar.