3 ms·

Maybe I am wrong but I feel like the strength of Python is writing Python and the arguable weakness of Python is it's speed and concurrency. Many of these Pyth

by baldfat 10y ago

Maybe I am wrong but I feel like the strength of Python is writing Python and the arguable weakness of Python is it's speed and concurrency. Many of these Python built languages seem to flip it around and build on the weaknesses of Python and not build on Python's strengths.

sevensor 10y ago
As a Python programmer, the appeal of the Haskell family seems to be correctness -- I've come to think of Python as a "surprisingly typed" language. This particular language looks like it has Haskelly syntax without the type system. I'd be most interested in the latter; I'd be willing to trade off performance in some places for stronger ability to reason about types. I envision a pure, strongly typed language with strict evaluation, that looks like Python to the rest of my code base.
- nkantar 10y ago
  Have you tried Python's type hints with Mypy, and so you have any thoughts on it?
  - sevensor 10y ago
    I haven't yet -- type annotations in Python 3 still don't seem to have stabilized. Although I admit I haven't looked too deeply into it, I know a bunch of new stuff landed in 3.6. The appeal of a library that adds a functional layer on top of Python is that it partitions "new stuff" from "old stuff". It seems easier to tear out and reimplement if we screw it up, versus type annotations diffusing out into the rest of our codebase.
  - chubot 10y ago
    FWIW I tried it on a relatively new 10K line project and gave up, because it doesn't play well with metaprogramming. I consider metaprogramming to be part of Python, so mypy and statically typed Python are really different languages with less power IMO. And of course the mypy author knew that -- that's why he gave it a different name. http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2016/11/30.html http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2016/11/30.html update here: http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2017/01/06.html http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2017/01/06.html I'm not claiming my experience generalizes... if you have a lot of Java-like code you can probably use mypy. Bizarrely, some people do actually have a lot of Java-like Python code.
  - domenukk 10y ago
    I've used typehints to write a compiler but with my own small homegrown annotations and it worked really well. It feels natural coming from languages with similar syntax like rust and the like. Cool integrates well with pycharm too
- maweki 10y ago
  Maybe you should try dogelang (dg). That's all the Haskell syntax goodness with the Python typesystem :D
  - sevensor 10y ago
    Well, my boss did used to own a Shiba Inu, so I think it's inevitable once he finds out about dg :)
cossatot 10y ago
The other strength of Python (as I'm sure you're aware) is its ecosystem. It's not clear to me to what extent imports work with Lambdascript but access to them (including the scientific stack) seems to be an explicit goal of, say, Hylang.
- SatvikBeri 10y ago
  I used Python for 6 years, but whenever I go back, I miss the expressiveness and safety offered by other languages. I frequently "forced" into using Python when libraries in languages I prefer (Scala, Haskell) just aren't available, but I can't justify reimplementing them.
  - yellowapple 10y ago
    Doesn't Scala use Java libraries? I'd be very surprised if availability of libraries for the JVM is significantly less than that of Python.
posterboy 10y ago
Since at least some of the backend programmers are language designers, the vm code might be equally nice to play with, seperate from runtime performance issues.

by baldfat 10y ago

sevensor 10y ago

As a Python programmer, the appeal of the Haskell family seems to be correctness -- I've come to think of Python as a "surprisingly typed" language. This particular language looks like it has Haskelly syntax without the type system. I'd be most interested in the latter; I'd be willing to trade off performance in some places for stronger ability to reason about types. I envision a pure, strongly typed language with strict evaluation, that looks like Python to the rest of my code base.

nkantar 10y ago
Have you tried Python's type hints with Mypy, and so you have any thoughts on it?
- sevensor 10y ago
  I haven't yet -- type annotations in Python 3 still don't seem to have stabilized. Although I admit I haven't looked too deeply into it, I know a bunch of new stuff landed in 3.6. The appeal of a library that adds a functional layer on top of Python is that it partitions "new stuff" from "old stuff". It seems easier to tear out and reimplement if we screw it up, versus type annotations diffusing out into the rest of our codebase.
- chubot 10y ago
  FWIW I tried it on a relatively new 10K line project and gave up, because it doesn't play well with metaprogramming. I consider metaprogramming to be part of Python, so mypy and statically typed Python are really different languages with less power IMO. And of course the mypy author knew that -- that's why he gave it a different name. http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2016/11/30.html http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2016/11/30.html update here: http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2017/01/06.html http://www.oilshell.org/blog/2017/01/06.html I'm not claiming my experience generalizes... if you have a lot of Java-like code you can probably use mypy. Bizarrely, some people do actually have a lot of Java-like Python code.
- domenukk 10y ago
  I've used typehints to write a compiler but with my own small homegrown annotations and it worked really well. It feels natural coming from languages with similar syntax like rust and the like. Cool integrates well with pycharm too
maweki 10y ago
Maybe you should try dogelang (dg). That's all the Haskell syntax goodness with the Python typesystem :D
- sevensor 10y ago
  Well, my boss did used to own a Shiba Inu, so I think it's inevitable once he finds out about dg :)

cossatot 10y ago

The other strength of Python (as I'm sure you're aware) is its ecosystem. It's not clear to me to what extent imports work with Lambdascript but access to them (including the scientific stack) seems to be an explicit goal of, say, Hylang.

SatvikBeri 10y ago
I used Python for 6 years, but whenever I go back, I miss the expressiveness and safety offered by other languages. I frequently "forced" into using Python when libraries in languages I prefer (Scala, Haskell) just aren't available, but I can't justify reimplementing them.
- yellowapple 10y ago
  Doesn't Scala use Java libraries? I'd be very surprised if availability of libraries for the JVM is significantly less than that of Python.

posterboy 10y ago

Since at least some of the backend programmers are language designers, the vm code might be equally nice to play with, seperate from runtime performance issues.