5 ms·

I don't understand why people are still going on about this

by muninn_ 10y ago

op00to 10y ago
I can only assume people like to be heard, and repeating the ideas heard in the echo chamber can be very reassuring when everyone agrees with you.
- geerlingguy 10y ago
  Not in this instance. I know that there were still a lot of unanswered questions, like exactly how badly is battery life affected (not just measured in Wh), and how does real world performance compare (not just Geekbench numbers). Also, for those making a $2k+ purchasing decision, it pays to do a little research as to what other people who work in similar situations think about the different options. I read a lot of reviews for MacBooks, Lenovo T4xx series, Dell XPS models, etc. Just like with any other topic, the color of varied opinions helps one arrive at a better understanding.
  - nilkn 10y ago
    Complaining about Apple and the MacBook Pro has become a pretty dominant topic on Hacker News from the last few months. I really do think this negativity about the product has become excessive, and it's the first time I've personally been annoyed about something like this on HN in four years of reading the site more or less daily. --- Since my comment is abrasive -- much more so than normal for me here on HN -- I figured it was worth it for me to put some more effort into this and provide some evidence. I easily came up with the following list of topics here from the last month: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13315262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13315262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13244357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13244357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13251401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13251401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13253390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13253390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13172903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13172903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13214754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13214754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13164534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13164534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13220623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13220623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13217008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13217008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13337727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13337727 (note that, while the headline is a bit general, much of the discussion is related to the new MBP) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13185428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13185428 I just stopped after this point. There were more.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - muninn_ 10y ago
      Thanks. I even posted on some of these as I was caught up in the discussion, but the discussion is over. There's nothing new to be added right now, and certainly nothing new to be added by some random person's irrelevant opinion.
      - Gigablah 10y ago
        Well, I guess we'd just have to go back to reposting Aaron Swartz articles.
    - praneshp 10y ago
      HN is a cesspool of negativity. I can see how different people would be turned away by hate for Yahoo/Twitter doing badly, hate for fb/uber, constant jealousy against startups that had an exit in the past few days (pretending as sanity about valuations), etc. Thankfully there is a lot of positivity, though you have to look harder for it.
    - tdkl 10y ago
      Nah, it only shows the amount of frustration over it and fear for the future.
    - treehau5 10y ago
      It's almost as if....people are really unhappy and disappointed. Imagine being on a Muscle Car Enthusiast forum, and Ford released a V8 Mustang that had less horsepower than it's predecessor, and worse handling, but just came with minor stylistic upgrades. The same thing would be happening.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
harryf 10y ago
Because the de facto "best tool" for professional personal computing since at least 5 years now (longer if you include other models) is broken, forcing a bunch of people who hadn't had to think about this stuff for ages to start asking "what next?"
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Sure, and that was a great discussion we had like 2 months ago, but every day we get posts about how some no-name person returned their computer because they didn't like it, or some person finds the touch bar is great for them. This isn't Hacker News, or even news. It's just a reblog of somebody's opinion about something that is already overly discussed. Their opinion is irrelevant. It's just another opinion. It's no different than if any one of us made a silly blog post about how we did or didn't return some product that we did or didn't like. It's just a waste.
  - bigpeopleareold 10y ago
    It's not a waste. It is developers reconsidering their investment towards a platform in the light of new facts and their own tolerance levels. It also means that developers will start using a Linux based OS, which is pleasing to me.
ebbv 10y ago
There's several obvious reasons: 1. Every time someone brings this up other people say "It's fine." and it really isn't fine. 2. We want Apple to hear that their core customers are unhappy and they should rethink the current course for their hardware. I love Apple computers but they currently don't provide a serious upgrade option for my 2012 15" rMBP. The 2016 15" is a joke by comparison.
- zimpenfish 10y ago
  > their core customers are unhappy I honestly don't think HN posters (nor bloggers) are anywhere near Apple's "core customers" - that's the millions of people who just want something workable from a shop they trust, not a few thousand (being optimistic) forum posters and bloggers. e.g. After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already-set-to-surpass-2015-macbook/ https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already...
  - Gigablah 10y ago
    I can't even begin to read that graph. "Indexed revenue" instead of number of units sold? "n=16,754 online shoppers" but the article says "panel of 4.4 million online shoppers"?
  - ebbv 10y ago
    Developers are the core customers for MacBook Pros. In volume the Air used to be the top seller, because yes there are more people who just want "a computer" that works and don't care about specs and won't look at battery life, etc. before buying. But do you know what those people base their purchasing decisions on? The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. I can't tell you how many people have moved over to Apple computers on my recommendations over the years. It's a lot. Right now I have a hard time recommending the 2016 models. If people can get a refurbished 2015 on the cheap I honestly think it's a better choice. > After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. This statistic is very popular but it's also extremely misleading. Everybody knew the lineup was due for a refresh so 2015 sales were lagging because of that, the higher numbers represent a dam of pent up purchases waiting for upgrades bursting. It's like pointing out that the number of people complaining about the 2016 models is way higher than the people complaining about the 2015 models. Of course it is. That doesn't tell the whole story and is somewhat misleading on its own. My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Apple needs to really re-examine. The current 13" and 15" MBP models should be the base "MacBook" models, and they should come out with a serious pro machine and label it as such (which restores MagSafe and has higher battery life.) The TouchBar should just be thrown off a bridge. It's a terrible gimmicky attempt at stuffing a touch screen onto a laptop.
bengale 10y ago
It's pretty funny how much of a non-issue this is outside of a select group of loud people. I know a lot of people that have the new MacBook and love it. The main complaint I hear is the wait time to get one.
satysin 10y ago
It is very interesting/helpful to me as I have held off buying a new MBP for exactly the reasons the author complains about. I suspected there would be issues and I didn't want to be the guinea pig so I appreciate the author taking the time to write and post this.

I don't understand why people are still going on about this

by muninn_ 10y ago

I don't understand why people are still going on about this

I can only assume people like to be heard, and repeating the ideas heard in the echo chamber can be very reassuring when everyone agrees with you.

geerlingguy 10y ago
Not in this instance. I know that there were still a lot of unanswered questions, like exactly how badly is battery life affected (not just measured in Wh), and how does real world performance compare (not just Geekbench numbers). Also, for those making a $2k+ purchasing decision, it pays to do a little research as to what other people who work in similar situations think about the different options. I read a lot of reviews for MacBooks, Lenovo T4xx series, Dell XPS models, etc. Just like with any other topic, the color of varied opinions helps one arrive at a better understanding.
- nilkn 10y ago
  Complaining about Apple and the MacBook Pro has become a pretty dominant topic on Hacker News from the last few months. I really do think this negativity about the product has become excessive, and it's the first time I've personally been annoyed about something like this on HN in four years of reading the site more or less daily. --- Since my comment is abrasive -- much more so than normal for me here on HN -- I figured it was worth it for me to put some more effort into this and provide some evidence. I easily came up with the following list of topics here from the last month: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13315262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13315262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13244357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13244357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13251401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13251401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13253390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13253390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157832 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13172903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13172903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13214754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13214754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13164534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13164534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13220623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13220623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13217008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13217008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13337727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13337727 (note that, while the headline is a bit general, much of the discussion is related to the new MBP) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13185428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13185428 I just stopped after this point. There were more.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - muninn_ 10y ago
    Thanks. I even posted on some of these as I was caught up in the discussion, but the discussion is over. There's nothing new to be added right now, and certainly nothing new to be added by some random person's irrelevant opinion.
    - Gigablah 10y ago
      Well, I guess we'd just have to go back to reposting Aaron Swartz articles.
  - praneshp 10y ago
    HN is a cesspool of negativity. I can see how different people would be turned away by hate for Yahoo/Twitter doing badly, hate for fb/uber, constant jealousy against startups that had an exit in the past few days (pretending as sanity about valuations), etc. Thankfully there is a lot of positivity, though you have to look harder for it.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    Nah, it only shows the amount of frustration over it and fear for the future.
  - treehau5 10y ago
    It's almost as if....people are really unhappy and disappointed. Imagine being on a Muscle Car Enthusiast forum, and Ford released a V8 Mustang that had less horsepower than it's predecessor, and worse handling, but just came with minor stylistic upgrades. The same thing would be happening.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

harryf 10y ago

Because the de facto "best tool" for professional personal computing since at least 5 years now (longer if you include other models) is broken, forcing a bunch of people who hadn't had to think about this stuff for ages to start asking "what next?"

muninn_ 10y ago
Sure, and that was a great discussion we had like 2 months ago, but every day we get posts about how some no-name person returned their computer because they didn't like it, or some person finds the touch bar is great for them. This isn't Hacker News, or even news. It's just a reblog of somebody's opinion about something that is already overly discussed. Their opinion is irrelevant. It's just another opinion. It's no different than if any one of us made a silly blog post about how we did or didn't return some product that we did or didn't like. It's just a waste.
- bigpeopleareold 10y ago
  It's not a waste. It is developers reconsidering their investment towards a platform in the light of new facts and their own tolerance levels. It also means that developers will start using a Linux based OS, which is pleasing to me.

ebbv 10y ago

There's several obvious reasons: 1. Every time someone brings this up other people say "It's fine." and it really isn't fine. 2. We want Apple to hear that their core customers are unhappy and they should rethink the current course for their hardware. I love Apple computers but they currently don't provide a serious upgrade option for my 2012 15" rMBP. The 2016 15" is a joke by comparison.

zimpenfish 10y ago
> their core customers are unhappy I honestly don't think HN posters (nor bloggers) are anywhere near Apple's "core customers" - that's the millions of people who just want something workable from a shop they trust, not a few thousand (being optimistic) forum posters and bloggers. e.g. After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already-set-to-surpass-2015-macbook/ https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-macbook-pro-sales-already...
- Gigablah 10y ago
  I can't even begin to read that graph. "Indexed revenue" instead of number of units sold? "n=16,754 online shoppers" but the article says "panel of 4.4 million online shoppers"?
- ebbv 10y ago
  Developers are the core customers for MacBook Pros. In volume the Air used to be the top seller, because yes there are more people who just want "a computer" that works and don't care about specs and won't look at battery life, etc. before buying. But do you know what those people base their purchasing decisions on? The recommendations of the developers and engineers they know who do care about those specs. I can't tell you how many people have moved over to Apple computers on my recommendations over the years. It's a lot. Right now I have a hard time recommending the 2016 models. If people can get a refurbished 2015 on the cheap I honestly think it's a better choice. > After 5 days, it was already crushing the competition and approaching 18 months of Macbook 2015 sales. This statistic is very popular but it's also extremely misleading. Everybody knew the lineup was due for a refresh so 2015 sales were lagging because of that, the higher numbers represent a dam of pent up purchases waiting for upgrades bursting. It's like pointing out that the number of people complaining about the 2016 models is way higher than the people complaining about the 2015 models. Of course it is. That doesn't tell the whole story and is somewhat misleading on its own. My point is just because initial sales of the 2016 models is high, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Once they get into people's hands and people find out "Oh the battery life is terrible and I really don't like the TouchBar." those sales may plummet (if that indeed is people's reaction.) Apple needs to really re-examine. The current 13" and 15" MBP models should be the base "MacBook" models, and they should come out with a serious pro machine and label it as such (which restores MagSafe and has higher battery life.) The TouchBar should just be thrown off a bridge. It's a terrible gimmicky attempt at stuffing a touch screen onto a laptop.

bengale 10y ago

It's pretty funny how much of a non-issue this is outside of a select group of loud people. I know a lot of people that have the new MacBook and love it. The main complaint I hear is the wait time to get one.

satysin 10y ago

It is very interesting/helpful to me as I have held off buying a new MBP for exactly the reasons the author complains about. I suspected there would be issues and I didn't want to be the guinea pig so I appreciate the author taking the time to write and post this.