4 ms·

This whole case seems utterly bizarre; I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality.

This whole case seems utterly bizarre; I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality. As I remember, Carmack's real innovation was to create a full screen effect that compensated for the cheap optics that palmer's design used; Now you could claim that as a member of staff, this innovation belonged to Zenimax, but this does not appear to be the case that they are making. In addition, how come other independent organisations have been able to create working VR without treading all over their patents if they were really betting on the technology?

krona 10y ago
I doubt it's about patents, since Carmack himself wouldn't be involved if it was. This seems to be a copyright issue, i.e. whether Carmack did a ctrl+c, ctrl+v on something he didn't own. Alternatively perhaps Zenimax has additional and convincing information about how the works in question was re-implemented. Was it done by Carmack himself, or did a team implement it from his specification?
momerath 10y ago
I don't have time to read through the thread today, but I did before the Rift kickstarter was announced, and my impression has always been that the software-distortion-in-compensation-for-simpler-optics[1] idea was already out there when Carmack chimed in. 1. Allowing the screen to be much closer, drastically improving practically achievable FOV. Here's the thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=14777 http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=14777
- cr0sh 10y ago
  Of course it was - the barrel distortion system was originally developed in the 1990s for and by (?) LEEP: http://www.leepvr.com/ http://www.leepvr.com/ Back then, the optics were key - and very expensive - but while the optics were originally used to warp then unwarp the image (ie - analog warping), it was thought that the warp portion could be done in software (but computers at the time weren't powerful enough to do it real-time). I believe that Palmer was fully aware of this, and when the LEEP optics patent expired, realized that a cheaper version could be made, and combined with other parts coming on the market (particularly lightweight, large, high-res phone displays) to build a "dream" HMD.
t0mbstone 10y ago
"none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality" So let me get this straight. Are you saying that Zenimax is inventing a... virtual... reality?
cr0sh 10y ago
> I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality. I was following Palmer's progress on the MTBS3D forums long before he even thought about the Rift. He'd been modding HMDs and recombining old 90's hardware in very interesting ways - as someone who was very into homebrew VR back in the mid-1990s, by 2012 it had become something of a "once-upon-a-time" fad (VR winter, maybe?) - nobody sold any kind of real HMD, nobody was really doing anything - it fascinated me. At the time, I was collecting up what little detritus of the 90s VR craze existed (I managed to get a complete collection of PCVR magazine before it was impossible to do so, plus numerous HMDs, Powergloves, Ascension FOBs trackers, etc). When I saw what Palmer was doing, he was like one of a handful of people I knew of who was playing with this stuff. It was really in left-field at the time! I had stopped really playing with it myself, pursuing other things - but when I saw what he was doing, I knew at that time that if VR was to ever make a comeback, Palmer would be at the front. Which is what led me to back his KS when he announced it. > As I remember, Carmack's real innovation was to create a full screen effect that compensated for the cheap optics that palmer's design used He may have coded up one of the first shaders for this, but the idea of doing a software-based barrel warp transform has been around since the early-1990s or further, when LEEP was selling their optics system: http://www.leepvr.com/ http://www.leepvr.com/ It was insanely expensive. I have no doubt that Palmer knew of them, since he was playing with old-school VR parts. His drive indicated to me that he probably has read all of the old-school books/magazines on VR and such, which all talked about the LEEP system. The patent on the optics ran out sometime in the early-2000s, IIRC (?) - and I think Palmer jumped on it, especially when low-cost, high-res phone displays became available for experimenters.
- ABCLAW 10y ago
  Reading your post reminded me of a post you submitted a month ago on the same topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13124415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13124415 I think the previous post is a gem and will be helpful for readers.

krona 10y ago

I doubt it's about patents, since Carmack himself wouldn't be involved if it was. This seems to be a copyright issue, i.e. whether Carmack did a ctrl+c, ctrl+v on something he didn't own. Alternatively perhaps Zenimax has additional and convincing information about how the works in question was re-implemented. Was it done by Carmack himself, or did a team implement it from his specification?

momerath 10y ago

I don't have time to read through the thread today, but I did before the Rift kickstarter was announced, and my impression has always been that the software-distortion-in-compensation-for-simpler-optics[1] idea was already out there when Carmack chimed in. 1. Allowing the screen to be much closer, drastically improving practically achievable FOV. Here's the thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=14777 http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=14777

cr0sh 10y ago
Of course it was - the barrel distortion system was originally developed in the 1990s for and by (?) LEEP: http://www.leepvr.com/ http://www.leepvr.com/ Back then, the optics were key - and very expensive - but while the optics were originally used to warp then unwarp the image (ie - analog warping), it was thought that the warp portion could be done in software (but computers at the time weren't powerful enough to do it real-time). I believe that Palmer was fully aware of this, and when the LEEP optics patent expired, realized that a cheaper version could be made, and combined with other parts coming on the market (particularly lightweight, large, high-res phone displays) to build a "dream" HMD.

t0mbstone 10y ago

"none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality" So let me get this straight. Are you saying that Zenimax is inventing a... virtual... reality?

cr0sh 10y ago

> I followed the development of the rift pre-Oculus, and none of what Zenimax are saying seems to be grounded in reality. I was following Palmer's progress on the MTBS3D forums long before he even thought about the Rift. He'd been modding HMDs and recombining old 90's hardware in very interesting ways - as someone who was very into homebrew VR back in the mid-1990s, by 2012 it had become something of a "once-upon-a-time" fad (VR winter, maybe?) - nobody sold any kind of real HMD, nobody was really doing anything - it fascinated me. At the time, I was collecting up what little detritus of the 90s VR craze existed (I managed to get a complete collection of PCVR magazine before it was impossible to do so, plus numerous HMDs, Powergloves, Ascension FOBs trackers, etc). When I saw what Palmer was doing, he was like one of a handful of people I knew of who was playing with this stuff. It was really in left-field at the time! I had stopped really playing with it myself, pursuing other things - but when I saw what he was doing, I knew at that time that if VR was to ever make a comeback, Palmer would be at the front. Which is what led me to back his KS when he announced it. > As I remember, Carmack's real innovation was to create a full screen effect that compensated for the cheap optics that palmer's design used He may have coded up one of the first shaders for this, but the idea of doing a software-based barrel warp transform has been around since the early-1990s or further, when LEEP was selling their optics system: http://www.leepvr.com/ http://www.leepvr.com/ It was insanely expensive. I have no doubt that Palmer knew of them, since he was playing with old-school VR parts. His drive indicated to me that he probably has read all of the old-school books/magazines on VR and such, which all talked about the LEEP system. The patent on the optics ran out sometime in the early-2000s, IIRC (?) - and I think Palmer jumped on it, especially when low-cost, high-res phone displays became available for experimenters.

ABCLAW 10y ago
Reading your post reminded me of a post you submitted a month ago on the same topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13124415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13124415 I think the previous post is a gem and will be helpful for readers.