4 ms·

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the solution is "another closed-source unix/linux-based operating system that throws away X.org and its attempted mo

by kriro 10y ago

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the solution is "another closed-source unix/linux-based operating system that throws away X.org and its attempted modern replacements, that can directly compete with OS X" We don't need more closed, we need more open. What we need is massive rewards for open hardware via customer money. As long as wireless cards and graphics cards are closed by default and drivers are BLOBed up it's a losing battle by default. I do believe there's an opening to mini-disrupt Apples hardware (specifically laptop) sales by providing the "Apple experience" of bundling up everything in a neat package with strong branding. Focus very hard on the professional niche, ignore everything else. The key is finding hardware vendors that will play ball (and investors that are willing to take the boring low margin hardware risk). Linux has 30-40% of Apple's market share. I suppose a bigish player like Dell could also work. I had the feeling their Linux line was more of an afterthought but the current release note of an extended Linux line looks pretty great. I'm not sure about their marketing and approach it isn't focused enough (just sell it as the ultimate developer box imo) but that news had me very excited. Good job Dell :)

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
That's not the Apple experience. The Apple experience means - well, used to mean - an entire ecosystem of hardware, software, content, distribution, marketing, branding, business partnerships, and development. Linux doesn't work with absolute consistency because FOSS people still don't understand that source code is a tiny part of the bigger user experience. The big challenge in the PC business isn't the OS, it's the politics of community building around a platform - "community" meaning users, hardware suppliers, developers, investors, and channel partners. Linux has a relatively tiny community which only really interests developers, which means that the big hardware companies don't feel any great commercial pressure to support it. This might change if Team Linux had an evangelical organisation that could negotiate and do politics at the appropriate levels. But politics is a much harder problem than writing code, so that probably won't happen any time soon. Edit: at the moment some of the distros have evolved to do some of that work, with varying levels of success. But if you want to play in the consumer space (which is a superset of the developer laptop market), you need to do a lot more than release distro installers and hope Dell or someone else will pick them for its hardware.
- lottin 10y ago
  One of the things that attracted me to FOSS in the first place was the complete lack of marketing, i.e. lies. At first I was a little taken aback by the way so many projects would advertise prominently flaws in their product (bugs, missing features, design limitations...), but quickly I got used to it, and now just seems the normal thing to do. Whereas marketing comes across as blatant, manipulative BS.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > FOSS people still don't understand that source code is a tiny part of the bigger user experience. I don't think that understanding is the major problem. The FOSS community just has a huge surplus of developers and practically no designers. From there on, it's a case of "if all you have is a hammer": If you're most adept at coding, you will try to solve every problem through code.
pjmlp 10y ago
No, GNU/Linux needs less fragmentation. It needs a full OS stack, from the kernel to the UI toolkit, that is guaranteed to be the same, across all distributions. Where are the Mac OS X frameworks on GNU/Linux? Nowhere, because each distribution might be using a total different way to play sounds, music, doing SIMD, process images, accessing databases, UI toolkit ....
- tomcam 10y ago
  We all agree. How do you achieve that goal when device vendors have no interest in working with a distant third Linux in the OS ecosystem, much less your elegant but totally unproven PjmlpOS?
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    I don't, hence why I moved away from GNU/Linux as desktop OS. For embedded use or being a POSIX clone on the server, it does just fine.
- drvdevd 10y ago
  This has actually always been one of the major benefits of FreeBSD (and other BSDs too). I consider it an accident of history that Linux won out. We (devs, sysadmins, users) chose this fragmentation for some reason I still don't understand.
  - therealidiot 10y ago
    Choice, to me, is important. I like that I don't _have_ to run a specific piece of software if I don't like the way it behaves/looks. I can pick something else that gets the job done in a way I prefer
  - empthought 10y ago
    Don't kid yourself. If IBM had thrown its weight behind FreeBSD instead of Linux in 2000-2001, Linux would be the greener-grass "what if?" OS and FreeBSD would be on most of our phones. Individual users had nothing to do with it.
Recurecur 10y ago
'I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the solution is "another closed-source unix/linux-based operating system that throws away X.org and its attempted modern replacements, that can directly compete with OS X" We don't need more closed, we need more open.' The main problem with Linux, IMO, is its inability to attract proprietary software. And while I really like many aspects of open source, it has devalued software (and software developers) in general for many people. Further, Linux has been largely an exercise in "borrowing" the most successful ideas from proprietary software. It has also been a poster child for poor UI design and inconsistency between applications. I love the idea of a macOS competitor using FreeBSD. It could include Linux compatibility as FreeBSD does now. For bonus points, write the entire new GUI in Swift...

by kriro 10y ago

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago

That's not the Apple experience. The Apple experience means - well, used to mean - an entire ecosystem of hardware, software, content, distribution, marketing, branding, business partnerships, and development. Linux doesn't work with absolute consistency because FOSS people still don't understand that source code is a tiny part of the bigger user experience. The big challenge in the PC business isn't the OS, it's the politics of community building around a platform - "community" meaning users, hardware suppliers, developers, investors, and channel partners. Linux has a relatively tiny community which only really interests developers, which means that the big hardware companies don't feel any great commercial pressure to support it. This might change if Team Linux had an evangelical organisation that could negotiate and do politics at the appropriate levels. But politics is a much harder problem than writing code, so that probably won't happen any time soon. Edit: at the moment some of the distros have evolved to do some of that work, with varying levels of success. But if you want to play in the consumer space (which is a superset of the developer laptop market), you need to do a lot more than release distro installers and hope Dell or someone else will pick them for its hardware.

lottin 10y ago
One of the things that attracted me to FOSS in the first place was the complete lack of marketing, i.e. lies. At first I was a little taken aback by the way so many projects would advertise prominently flaws in their product (bugs, missing features, design limitations...), but quickly I got used to it, and now just seems the normal thing to do. Whereas marketing comes across as blatant, manipulative BS.
majewsky 10y ago
> FOSS people still don't understand that source code is a tiny part of the bigger user experience. I don't think that understanding is the major problem. The FOSS community just has a huge surplus of developers and practically no designers. From there on, it's a case of "if all you have is a hammer": If you're most adept at coding, you will try to solve every problem through code.

pjmlp 10y ago

No, GNU/Linux needs less fragmentation. It needs a full OS stack, from the kernel to the UI toolkit, that is guaranteed to be the same, across all distributions. Where are the Mac OS X frameworks on GNU/Linux? Nowhere, because each distribution might be using a total different way to play sounds, music, doing SIMD, process images, accessing databases, UI toolkit ....

tomcam 10y ago
We all agree. How do you achieve that goal when device vendors have no interest in working with a distant third Linux in the OS ecosystem, much less your elegant but totally unproven PjmlpOS?
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I don't, hence why I moved away from GNU/Linux as desktop OS. For embedded use or being a POSIX clone on the server, it does just fine.
drvdevd 10y ago
This has actually always been one of the major benefits of FreeBSD (and other BSDs too). I consider it an accident of history that Linux won out. We (devs, sysadmins, users) chose this fragmentation for some reason I still don't understand.
- therealidiot 10y ago
  Choice, to me, is important. I like that I don't _have_ to run a specific piece of software if I don't like the way it behaves/looks. I can pick something else that gets the job done in a way I prefer
- empthought 10y ago
  Don't kid yourself. If IBM had thrown its weight behind FreeBSD instead of Linux in 2000-2001, Linux would be the greener-grass "what if?" OS and FreeBSD would be on most of our phones. Individual users had nothing to do with it.

Recurecur 10y ago

'I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the solution is "another closed-source unix/linux-based operating system that throws away X.org and its attempted modern replacements, that can directly compete with OS X" We don't need more closed, we need more open.' The main problem with Linux, IMO, is its inability to attract proprietary software. And while I really like many aspects of open source, it has devalued software (and software developers) in general for many people. Further, Linux has been largely an exercise in "borrowing" the most successful ideas from proprietary software. It has also been a poster child for poor UI design and inconsistency between applications. I love the idea of a macOS competitor using FreeBSD. It could include Linux compatibility as FreeBSD does now. For bonus points, write the entire new GUI in Swift...