6 ms·

You say that now, but when you step up to the machine with the knowledge that you are about to cease to exist, while somewhere else a perfect copy of you gets t

You say that now, but when you step up to the machine with the knowledge that you are about to cease to exist, while somewhere else a perfect copy of you gets to go about living your life, I bet you change your mind.

mathgeek 10y ago
Ah yes, the dilemma of whether the person on the other end having your memories means that the current you didn't cease to exist at the departing end.
Cerium 10y ago
I think it depends on implementation. I wake up every morning and I'm pretty sure I'm still me. I go in elevators and each time the doors open I'm still me. So, what sort of transportation experience would change that? Admittedly, the closes to teleportation I've ever felt was my first trip on a cruise ship. I went to sleep in one city, and when I opened my eyes I was suddenly in a city hundred miles away. It was magic. I also still felt like myself.
- raquo 10y ago
  Well, sleep and cruise ships don't destroy and copy your body. Teleportation would be equivalent to being killed the way I see it, until we get a better understanding of conscience at least.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    Your body slowly replaces itself. I'm reasonably sure that when you die you have replaced almost all of its atoms at least once.
    - simonh 10y ago
      I've been using the same broom for 20 years! Never needed a new one and I'd never think of getting a new one. Of course I've replaced the handle twice and the brush four or five times.
    - soylentcola 10y ago
      Theseus' Meatbag?
    - contra64 10y ago
      Eventually, the constituent atoms themselves perform a complete cycle (at the slowest rates) every ~7 years. Some substances (e.g. water) cycle much faster, obviously. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11893583 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1189358... Which tells us that sentient consciousness and identity is mostly about the continuity of a signal across only some cells (nerves), and mostly rides on top of standing waves supported by those special cellular processes, at frequencies of oscillation faster than the underlying polarized/ionic chemical processes.
  - Cerium 10y ago
    How do I know? I don't know what happened while on was sleeping. I fell asleep, and perpetually a few minutes later woke up, but my clock told me it was 8 hours. What happened??
    - raquo 10y ago
      You know what happens when other people sleep. It's not an issue.
- greggman 10y ago
  Here's a great old animation on this topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    Better quality (but with Flash requirement): https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/ https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/
- MrQuincle 10y ago
  I can think of an experience. The kind of teleportation in which you (or your copy) is teleported too close in time and space and the original is not destroyed. Then your copy claiming your job, your house, your wife and your children. Just as you would do. Also if the transport process takes 20 lightyears, when do you send the ACQ? Will your original walk around for 20 years and then have an automated kill switch?
  - rebuilder 10y ago
    Why is it better if the original is destroyed? That's the whole issue here, the process in your example, when working as intended, just kills a person and makes an identical copy.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    >Then your copy claiming your job, your house, your wife and your children. Just as you would do. This sounds like a great scenario to me. I'm sure I would get along just fine with a duplicate of myself, and we could live together and get a lot more done. It sure would help a lot with avoiding burnout at work: we could take turns going to work, me one month and him the next month for instance. But two of us sharing one wife might be a bit much for her, so it'd be a lot better if we brought a second woman into the mix and lived as a polyamorous foursome (though this might be easier if we could create a teleportation clone of the wife too). It'd also be great having a double to help me on house projects, hobby projects, working on a side business, etc. And you mentioned kids: having an extra adult around the house to deal with them can only be a help, and since it's actually another me and not some other person, we're guaranteed to get along, have the same views on parenting, etc. Honestly, I don't see any downside to this situation at all.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      I would get a lot less [productive work] done if I had an exact duplicate of myself. My spouse would be jealous and disgusted at the same time. But I am 90% certain that if my spouse had a duplicate, they would be yelling at each other all the time. It would be interesting to correlate answers to the question "If you had an exact duplicate, with the same body as you, the same thoughts as you, and the same memories as you up until yesterday, how would you get along?" with various aspects of psychology.
- simonh 10y ago
  “I thought you said you could just read his brain electronically,” protested Ford. “Oh yes,” said Frankie, “but we’d have to get it out first. It’s got to be prepared.” “Treated,” said Benjy. “Diced.” “It could always be replaced,” said Benjy reasonably, “if you think it’s important.” “Yes, an electronic brain,” said Frankie, “a simple one would suffice.” “A simple one!” wailed Arthur. “Yeah,” said Zaphod with a sudden evil grin, “you’d just have to program it to say What? and I don’t understand and Where’s the tea? Who’d know the difference?” “I’d notice the difference,” said Arthur. “No, you wouldn’t,” said Frankie mouse, “you’d be programmed not to.” - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Not actually about teleportation, but still apropos IMHO.
kbutler 10y ago
Think about that as you're taking also tonight. Is the person that wakes up the same person?
- rebuilder 10y ago
  Why draw the line at sleep? Your consciousness, such as it is, is pretty fleeting and vague anyway. What reason do you have to think any self survives from one moment to another?
  - animal531 10y ago
    At least while awake, you may be fleeting but you exist in a near constant stream of "you", which make it feel constant. When you go to sleep your brain enters an altered state, which is only a subsection of yourself. Who knows what will wake up from that?
- Arizhel 10y ago
  Yes. You're not unconscious when you're asleep, you're just in an altered state of consciousness. Being actually unconscious is a very different experience; if you'd ever been through surgery with general anaesthesia you'd know about this.
neverminder 10y ago
Exactly. What if there's a bug and when your "copy" is created at destination original is not destroyed? Would you agree to be killed, should your copy agree instead? Even worse, what if there's an anomaly in transporting data, original is destroyed and copy emerges disfigured, dead or something in between? Teleportation scares the shit out of me.
- avip 10y ago
  As in the quite ancient https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
  - astrodust 10y ago
    Original NFB source: https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/ https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/
- manuelflara 10y ago
  This reminds me of Christopher Nolan's The Prestige.
  - zo1 10y ago
    In case anyone isn't aware, you've just read a spoiler.
- gm-conspiracy 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(TNG_episode) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(TNG_episode)
- bigtunacan 10y ago
  Did you by chance read the short story "Think Like a Dinosaur" or see the episode of The Outer Limits based off it? It presents this exact same dilemma. Up until that point I never really considered the potential ethical ramifications of teleportation.
- 10y ago
Angostura 10y ago
Damnit Jim!
timje1 10y ago
It gets more fun when you start to think about it as different consciousness being created and destroyed, each with the same memories. At what point do we start being afraid to fall asleep?
- Filligree 10y ago
  When you go to sleep your brain doesn't stop working. Comas, now...
filoeleven 10y ago
This is why I have no problem walking through wormholes, but will never set foot in a teleporter.

mathgeek 10y ago

Ah yes, the dilemma of whether the person on the other end having your memories means that the current you didn't cease to exist at the departing end.

Cerium 10y ago

I think it depends on implementation. I wake up every morning and I'm pretty sure I'm still me. I go in elevators and each time the doors open I'm still me. So, what sort of transportation experience would change that? Admittedly, the closes to teleportation I've ever felt was my first trip on a cruise ship. I went to sleep in one city, and when I opened my eyes I was suddenly in a city hundred miles away. It was magic. I also still felt like myself.

raquo 10y ago
Well, sleep and cruise ships don't destroy and copy your body. Teleportation would be equivalent to being killed the way I see it, until we get a better understanding of conscience at least.
- adrianN 10y ago
  Your body slowly replaces itself. I'm reasonably sure that when you die you have replaced almost all of its atoms at least once.
  - simonh 10y ago
    I've been using the same broom for 20 years! Never needed a new one and I'd never think of getting a new one. Of course I've replaced the handle twice and the brush four or five times.
  - soylentcola 10y ago
    Theseus' Meatbag?
  - contra64 10y ago
    Eventually, the constituent atoms themselves perform a complete cycle (at the slowest rates) every ~7 years. Some substances (e.g. water) cycle much faster, obviously. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11893583 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1189358... Which tells us that sentient consciousness and identity is mostly about the continuity of a signal across only some cells (nerves), and mostly rides on top of standing waves supported by those special cellular processes, at frequencies of oscillation faster than the underlying polarized/ionic chemical processes.
- Cerium 10y ago
  How do I know? I don't know what happened while on was sleeping. I fell asleep, and perpetually a few minutes later woke up, but my clock told me it was 8 hours. What happened??
  - raquo 10y ago
    You know what happens when other people sleep. It's not an issue.
greggman 10y ago
Here's a great old animation on this topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  Better quality (but with Flash requirement): https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/ https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/
MrQuincle 10y ago
I can think of an experience. The kind of teleportation in which you (or your copy) is teleported too close in time and space and the original is not destroyed. Then your copy claiming your job, your house, your wife and your children. Just as you would do. Also if the transport process takes 20 lightyears, when do you send the ACQ? Will your original walk around for 20 years and then have an automated kill switch?
- rebuilder 10y ago
  Why is it better if the original is destroyed? That's the whole issue here, the process in your example, when working as intended, just kills a person and makes an identical copy.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  >Then your copy claiming your job, your house, your wife and your children. Just as you would do. This sounds like a great scenario to me. I'm sure I would get along just fine with a duplicate of myself, and we could live together and get a lot more done. It sure would help a lot with avoiding burnout at work: we could take turns going to work, me one month and him the next month for instance. But two of us sharing one wife might be a bit much for her, so it'd be a lot better if we brought a second woman into the mix and lived as a polyamorous foursome (though this might be easier if we could create a teleportation clone of the wife too). It'd also be great having a double to help me on house projects, hobby projects, working on a side business, etc. And you mentioned kids: having an extra adult around the house to deal with them can only be a help, and since it's actually another me and not some other person, we're guaranteed to get along, have the same views on parenting, etc. Honestly, I don't see any downside to this situation at all.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    I would get a lot less [productive work] done if I had an exact duplicate of myself. My spouse would be jealous and disgusted at the same time. But I am 90% certain that if my spouse had a duplicate, they would be yelling at each other all the time. It would be interesting to correlate answers to the question "If you had an exact duplicate, with the same body as you, the same thoughts as you, and the same memories as you up until yesterday, how would you get along?" with various aspects of psychology.
simonh 10y ago
“I thought you said you could just read his brain electronically,” protested Ford. “Oh yes,” said Frankie, “but we’d have to get it out first. It’s got to be prepared.” “Treated,” said Benjy. “Diced.” “It could always be replaced,” said Benjy reasonably, “if you think it’s important.” “Yes, an electronic brain,” said Frankie, “a simple one would suffice.” “A simple one!” wailed Arthur. “Yeah,” said Zaphod with a sudden evil grin, “you’d just have to program it to say What? and I don’t understand and Where’s the tea? Who’d know the difference?” “I’d notice the difference,” said Arthur. “No, you wouldn’t,” said Frankie mouse, “you’d be programmed not to.” - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Not actually about teleportation, but still apropos IMHO.

kbutler 10y ago

Think about that as you're taking also tonight. Is the person that wakes up the same person?

rebuilder 10y ago
Why draw the line at sleep? Your consciousness, such as it is, is pretty fleeting and vague anyway. What reason do you have to think any self survives from one moment to another?
- animal531 10y ago
  At least while awake, you may be fleeting but you exist in a near constant stream of "you", which make it feel constant. When you go to sleep your brain enters an altered state, which is only a subsection of yourself. Who knows what will wake up from that?
Arizhel 10y ago
Yes. You're not unconscious when you're asleep, you're just in an altered state of consciousness. Being actually unconscious is a very different experience; if you'd ever been through surgery with general anaesthesia you'd know about this.

neverminder 10y ago

Exactly. What if there's a bug and when your "copy" is created at destination original is not destroyed? Would you agree to be killed, should your copy agree instead? Even worse, what if there's an anomaly in transporting data, original is destroyed and copy emerges disfigured, dead or something in between? Teleportation scares the shit out of me.

avip 10y ago
As in the quite ancient https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
- astrodust 10y ago
  Original NFB source: https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/ https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/
manuelflara 10y ago
This reminds me of Christopher Nolan's The Prestige.
- zo1 10y ago
  In case anyone isn't aware, you've just read a spoiler.
gm-conspiracy 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(TNG_episode) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(TNG_episode)
bigtunacan 10y ago
Did you by chance read the short story "Think Like a Dinosaur" or see the episode of The Outer Limits based off it? It presents this exact same dilemma. Up until that point I never really considered the potential ethical ramifications of teleportation.
10y ago

Angostura 10y ago

Damnit Jim!

timje1 10y ago

It gets more fun when you start to think about it as different consciousness being created and destroyed, each with the same memories. At what point do we start being afraid to fall asleep?

Filligree 10y ago
When you go to sleep your brain doesn't stop working. Comas, now...

filoeleven 10y ago

This is why I have no problem walking through wormholes, but will never set foot in a teleporter.