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Proportional representation gives undue power to small parties, who can make demands disproportional to their share of the vote in exchange for pushing legislat

Proportional representation gives undue power to small parties, who can make demands disproportional to their share of the vote in exchange for pushing legislation past the 50% threshold (it's even worse in a parliamentary system, where small parties are often king-makers). The American system is more about representing the preferences of communities than directly those of individuals. When you look at it like that, things like the electoral college, the senate, and plurality voting make sense.

flukus 10y ago
> Proportional representation gives undue power to small parties, who can make demands disproportional to their share of the vote in exchange for pushing legislation past the 50% threshold (it's even worse in a parliamentary system, where small parties are often king-makers). This is only true when larger parties can't cooperate.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  And if they can, you end up with a "grand coalition" that lacks the internal cohesion and unity of vision to take any meaningful action.
  - flukus 10y ago
    They don't need to be in a coalition at all, they just have to get enough support for each individual piece of legislation and vote on it's merits.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Only in a parliamentary system, where a stable majority in the legislature is encessary to form a government. Otherwise, you end up with ad hoc per-issue coalitions.
  - talideon 10y ago
    Most of Europe would beg to disagree. The great advantage of coalition government is that it the partners act as a moderating influence on one another. Also, you tend not to get 'grand coalitions'. Instead, you get a senior member with enough junior members to create a stable voting bloc. Grand coalitions only happen at times of perceived existential threat or national crisis. The closest thing to to a counterexample I can think of is Austria, but even then, those were to put a cordon sanitaire around far right and far left parties. The very fact that grand coalitions are seen as antidemocratic tends to keep their formation to a minimum. In reality, countries that have lots of coalitions by virtue of their voting system (such as STV[1]) tend to have perfectly stable governments. It's only in countries whose voting systems tend to give a single party power that have issues with coalitions, because they have no idea how to handle situations like that. Witness the panic in the UK after the 2010 elections - here in Ireland, we were quite entertained by the panic as coalition governments are the norm here. [1] Ireland, where I'm from, for instance, hasn't had a non-coalition government since the '50s. In that time, we went from being one of the poorest countries in Europe of one of the wealthiest in the world, so obviously our government was able to take some kind of meaningful action in all that time.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >Also, you tend not to get 'grand coalitions'. Instead, you get a senior member with enough junior members to create a stable voting bloc. Grand coalitions only happen at times of perceived existential threat or national crisis. The closest thing to to a counterexample I can think of is Austria, but even then, those were to put a cordon sanitaire around far right and far left parties. The very fact that grand coalitions are seen as antidemocratic tends to keep their formation to a minimum. This kind of thing is why my ideal system right now is Mixed Member Proportional representation with an approval-vote. Represent small opinions, but strengthen the moderate blocs at the expense of extremist blocs.
      - talideon 10y ago
        I've mixed feelings about MMPR, mainly because it's subject to collusion via decoy lists, party splitting and the like, so it ends up devolving into parallel voting, which is susceptible to gerrymandering of constituencies. It works well in a lot of places (Germany, Scotland, NZ, &c.), but not so well in others (Venezuela, Hungary, &c.). How would adding approval voting into the mix improve MMPR as you see it? It's an interesting idea for sure, especially as approval voting eliminates the spoiler factor in single seat elections you get in FPTP, and it's simpler than IRV.
treebeard901 10y ago
> The American system is more about representing the preferences of communities than directly those of individuals. Increase the number of representatives to match the population growth. It hasn't increased since 1911. Gerrymandering is a scaling problem.
- spc476 10y ago
  Then you have another scaling problem. If you increase the number of representatives to the level at the founding of the US (1 per 30,000 or so if I recall) then you'll end up with the House of Representatives holding 11,000+ members.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    That sounds like a great idea. Mothball the south end of the Capitol Building; let 11,000 representatives meet and vote online.
    - Taek 10y ago
      Or maybe acknowledge that 300M people is a lot to have under one rule of government and split the country apart according to the most sensible cultural borders.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - ribfeast 10y ago
        I recommend checking ou the book [American Nations](https://smile.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures-ebook/dp/B0052RDIZA/ref=s9_wsim_gw_g351_i18_r?_encoding=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-3&pf_rd_r=4NW1DRD2EDKNJ5X4K721&pf_rd_r=4NW1DRD2EDKNJ5X4K721&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=9f840529-d6e7-463b-ab2b-3aa605b03263&pf_rd_p=9f840529-d6e7-463b-ab2b-3aa605b03263&pf_rd_i=desktop https://smile.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-C...)
      - 10y ago
Ericson2314 10y ago
I think such a low–latency boost to the fringes, as opposed to gerrymandering's high-latency boost to the fringes, is good for keeping people engaged in politics, especially in a place with so much pessimism and initeria like the US.
barrkel 10y ago
Non-proportional representation is liable to majoritarianism, which is arguably a worse outcome. Parties tend to be populist rather than principled; emotions and identity politics come to the fore and rationality is subdued.
- AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
  I'd argue that populism is a feature, not a bug. Parties must always appeal to at least half of voters.
pjc50 10y ago
In the American system, the small parties making disproportionate demands are simply embedded within the larger parties and use the discipline of the two-party system to take it over. All you need is a majority within a party that gets half the vote: 50% of 50% is 25%. This is why the Republican party has been taken over by an extremist who's unpopular with large chunks of his own party.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >All you need is a majority within a party that gets half the vote: 50% of 50% is 25%. This is why the Republican party has been taken over by an extremist who's unpopular with large chunks of his own party. The plurality primary system actually makes it much worse than that. The total percentage of the registered voter population who nominated Trump, IIRC, was about 4.5%. It was 4.6% for Clinton, too. Lots of other people voted in the primaries, but voted for losing candidates. So it actually turns out you need 4.5% of the total voting population to support you to get a major-party ballot line, at which point you'll basically receive 25% in the general election on "ham sandwich" grounds in your party's regional bases. Then you can concentrate on competing your way up to a majority vote in the general (or for Presidential races, the Electoral College).
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>The American system is more about representing the preferences of communities than directly those of individuals. And by "communities" we mean "lines drawn on the maps decades to centuries ago". For example, New York City has one municipality with five boroughs, while the Boston metro area splits its urban core into five different municipalities (even though people in each commute to all the others). And the Bay Area in California? Well, let's not talk about the idiocies imposed by municipal boundaries in the Bay Area... Like the Atherton Caltrain chauvinism...
vacri 10y ago
What you're forgetting is that while the small parties are king-makers, they're not kings. They don't get to dictate the bulk of policy - they generally just get to get one favoured bit of legislation looked at. Proportional representation is far, far, far, far, far better at representing a large modern democracy than the US electoral college system (which includes the ability for some electors to completely ignore the will of the people - not sure how that makes sense). FPTP only results in a two-party system over time. Prop rep and friends allow for multipolar politics. Besides, if you're worried about the undue influence of small parties, the electoral college still sucks, because small states wield undue influence - votes beyond their population count.

flukus 10y ago

> Proportional representation gives undue power to small parties, who can make demands disproportional to their share of the vote in exchange for pushing legislation past the 50% threshold (it's even worse in a parliamentary system, where small parties are often king-makers). This is only true when larger parties can't cooperate.

marcoperaza 10y ago
And if they can, you end up with a "grand coalition" that lacks the internal cohesion and unity of vision to take any meaningful action.
- flukus 10y ago
  They don't need to be in a coalition at all, they just have to get enough support for each individual piece of legislation and vote on it's merits.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Only in a parliamentary system, where a stable majority in the legislature is encessary to form a government. Otherwise, you end up with ad hoc per-issue coalitions.
- talideon 10y ago
  Most of Europe would beg to disagree. The great advantage of coalition government is that it the partners act as a moderating influence on one another. Also, you tend not to get 'grand coalitions'. Instead, you get a senior member with enough junior members to create a stable voting bloc. Grand coalitions only happen at times of perceived existential threat or national crisis. The closest thing to to a counterexample I can think of is Austria, but even then, those were to put a cordon sanitaire around far right and far left parties. The very fact that grand coalitions are seen as antidemocratic tends to keep their formation to a minimum. In reality, countries that have lots of coalitions by virtue of their voting system (such as STV[1]) tend to have perfectly stable governments. It's only in countries whose voting systems tend to give a single party power that have issues with coalitions, because they have no idea how to handle situations like that. Witness the panic in the UK after the 2010 elections - here in Ireland, we were quite entertained by the panic as coalition governments are the norm here. [1] Ireland, where I'm from, for instance, hasn't had a non-coalition government since the '50s. In that time, we went from being one of the poorest countries in Europe of one of the wealthiest in the world, so obviously our government was able to take some kind of meaningful action in all that time.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >Also, you tend not to get 'grand coalitions'. Instead, you get a senior member with enough junior members to create a stable voting bloc. Grand coalitions only happen at times of perceived existential threat or national crisis. The closest thing to to a counterexample I can think of is Austria, but even then, those were to put a cordon sanitaire around far right and far left parties. The very fact that grand coalitions are seen as antidemocratic tends to keep their formation to a minimum. This kind of thing is why my ideal system right now is Mixed Member Proportional representation with an approval-vote. Represent small opinions, but strengthen the moderate blocs at the expense of extremist blocs.
    - talideon 10y ago
      I've mixed feelings about MMPR, mainly because it's subject to collusion via decoy lists, party splitting and the like, so it ends up devolving into parallel voting, which is susceptible to gerrymandering of constituencies. It works well in a lot of places (Germany, Scotland, NZ, &c.), but not so well in others (Venezuela, Hungary, &c.). How would adding approval voting into the mix improve MMPR as you see it? It's an interesting idea for sure, especially as approval voting eliminates the spoiler factor in single seat elections you get in FPTP, and it's simpler than IRV.

treebeard901 10y ago

> The American system is more about representing the preferences of communities than directly those of individuals. Increase the number of representatives to match the population growth. It hasn't increased since 1911. Gerrymandering is a scaling problem.

spc476 10y ago
Then you have another scaling problem. If you increase the number of representatives to the level at the founding of the US (1 per 30,000 or so if I recall) then you'll end up with the House of Representatives holding 11,000+ members.
- sjwright 10y ago
  That sounds like a great idea. Mothball the south end of the Capitol Building; let 11,000 representatives meet and vote online.
  - Taek 10y ago
    Or maybe acknowledge that 300M people is a lot to have under one rule of government and split the country apart according to the most sensible cultural borders.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - ribfeast 10y ago
      I recommend checking ou the book [American Nations](https://smile.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures-ebook/dp/B0052RDIZA/ref=s9_wsim_gw_g351_i18_r?_encoding=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-3&pf_rd_r=4NW1DRD2EDKNJ5X4K721&pf_rd_r=4NW1DRD2EDKNJ5X4K721&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=9f840529-d6e7-463b-ab2b-3aa605b03263&pf_rd_p=9f840529-d6e7-463b-ab2b-3aa605b03263&pf_rd_i=desktop https://smile.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-C...)
    - 10y ago

Ericson2314 10y ago

I think such a low–latency boost to the fringes, as opposed to gerrymandering's high-latency boost to the fringes, is good for keeping people engaged in politics, especially in a place with so much pessimism and initeria like the US.

barrkel 10y ago

Non-proportional representation is liable to majoritarianism, which is arguably a worse outcome. Parties tend to be populist rather than principled; emotions and identity politics come to the fore and rationality is subdued.

AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
I'd argue that populism is a feature, not a bug. Parties must always appeal to at least half of voters.

pjc50 10y ago

In the American system, the small parties making disproportionate demands are simply embedded within the larger parties and use the discipline of the two-party system to take it over. All you need is a majority within a party that gets half the vote: 50% of 50% is 25%. This is why the Republican party has been taken over by an extremist who's unpopular with large chunks of his own party.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>All you need is a majority within a party that gets half the vote: 50% of 50% is 25%. This is why the Republican party has been taken over by an extremist who's unpopular with large chunks of his own party. The plurality primary system actually makes it much worse than that. The total percentage of the registered voter population who nominated Trump, IIRC, was about 4.5%. It was 4.6% for Clinton, too. Lots of other people voted in the primaries, but voted for losing candidates. So it actually turns out you need 4.5% of the total voting population to support you to get a major-party ballot line, at which point you'll basically receive 25% in the general election on "ham sandwich" grounds in your party's regional bases. Then you can concentrate on competing your way up to a majority vote in the general (or for Presidential races, the Electoral College).

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>The American system is more about representing the preferences of communities than directly those of individuals. And by "communities" we mean "lines drawn on the maps decades to centuries ago". For example, New York City has one municipality with five boroughs, while the Boston metro area splits its urban core into five different municipalities (even though people in each commute to all the others). And the Bay Area in California? Well, let's not talk about the idiocies imposed by municipal boundaries in the Bay Area... Like the Atherton Caltrain chauvinism...

vacri 10y ago

What you're forgetting is that while the small parties are king-makers, they're not kings. They don't get to dictate the bulk of policy - they generally just get to get one favoured bit of legislation looked at. Proportional representation is far, far, far, far, far better at representing a large modern democracy than the US electoral college system (which includes the ability for some electors to completely ignore the will of the people - not sure how that makes sense). FPTP only results in a two-party system over time. Prop rep and friends allow for multipolar politics. Besides, if you're worried about the undue influence of small parties, the electoral college still sucks, because small states wield undue influence - votes beyond their population count.