3 ms·

The problem is/was never Linux. For me, it's always been X. At some point, it just stops working. I've had to reinstall from scratch so many times over the last

by mnm1 10y ago

The problem is/was never Linux. For me, it's always been X. At some point, it just stops working. I've had to reinstall from scratch so many times over the last 20 years that I've lost count. Tried again these last couple of months. Nope. The longest X has stayed stable has been almost 6 months, about 5 years ago. Same as 20 and 10 years ago. This time it was only a few weeks. After that, I'm lucky if I get a text login prompt at all. Maybe Wayland will be better but I'm not holding my breath based on what I've read so far. On top of X's display issues, it has input issues, especially with trackpads. This should be self explanatory to anyone who's run Linux on an Macbook Pro and likely with any other trackpad. I think many of the issues can be fixed with many days spent on tweaking the drivers, but some of the issues don't seem to have a fix that the drivers support (proper double tap detection that only registers a double tap if my fingers are close together--should part of accidental touch detection--for example). I really want it to work but X is simply insufferable in its current form. I shouldn't have to reinstall the OS multiple times just to test it out or debug X when it fails to load (it's just easier to reinstall). Ironically, everything else works perfectly for me, including all necessary software, wifi, nvidia gfx, etc.

terrywang 10y ago
X is really old and should be phased out. That's why Fedora has made Wayland the default display manager in latest Fedora 25. I have never had the problem you've described, most issue I've encountered (my VGA/GPU were all Intel/NVIDIA) can be fixed (using pseudo console, SSH, chroot etc...) without reinstall (which doesn't really fix the root cause). The issues you've mentioned, try to look for workarounds from distro wiki or stackoverflow (sister sites), or even Gentoo/Arch Docs, try to get mentor who's a Linux veteran will save you time and effort. I've been running rolling release for many years and it has never broken once after the sysV init -> systemd migration (I did a reinstall). Even Ubuntu / Kubuntu LTS versions have been stable, I wonder if it the VGA/GPU driver causing all the troubles. HTH
- mnm1 10y ago
  I'm hoping Wayland does indeed solve the problems X has. Unfortunately, it's not just one problem but a series of them spread over multiple machines from various vendors. This latest one I think is probably not the graphics driver as it did work fine for a couple of weeks but the trackpad driver. I think I might give Fedora 25 a shot and see if there's a difference. Without a doubt, however, Linux based OS's have come a very long way even in just the last 5 years, let alone the last 20. Mint KDE for example, works almost out of the box for me on my 2013 MbPro w/ external 4k monitor (except internal trackpad / Magic Trackpad 2). I suspect I'll be able to remove that "almost" in the next year or two if not sooner and once messing with X config is no longer required, hopefully X (or Wayland) will be stable.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  > X is really old and should be phased out. Yeah, let the CADT flow...
mgbmtl 10y ago
I'm confused by your comment. Why would you have to re-install your OS because of a problem with X? X doesn't typically save a configuration, it doesn't keep a registry, etc. Its settings get regenerated when it boots. Maybe you're encountering application configuration issues? Deleting/re-creating your user account should be enough (or finding the Gnome/KDE/other configuration that is causing problem, but I agree that can be hard to find). If your experience is mostly with Apple hardware, which I haven't used in a while, then you're taking a risk. The manufacturer/distributor is not playing nice with the community. I use mostly Intel generic hardware (including Intel video cards). At worst, I had to use Debian "testing" for the first few months after buying new hardware. Wayland fixes issues in the Linux security model, but otherwise I don't know how well it does on hardware where the manufacturer isn't contributing. You need to direct that feedback to the people to whom you gave a lot of money :/
- mnm1 10y ago
  I don't have to reinstall; I just don't have the patience to debug and fix X when it fails. I've definitely had plenty of problems with every single window manager I've ever tried which true, is not X itself, but plenty of the problems have been with graphics and input devices which X does handle. To be complete and clear then, the whole GUI system based on X, including X itself and window managers, has never been stable for me. I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't typically save a configuration." It definitely needs one to run properly (xorg.conf). As far as manufacturers, I've tried running this on Apple, Dell, Gateway, and desktop boxes I built over the years. There isn't much of a difference between any of them.
  - csdreamer7 10y ago
    You can download Fedora 25 which uses Wayland on Intel graphics. With that said I haven't had any real issues with X itself in a long time. It is usually with the drivers in Mesa/Nvidia or the kernel with newer hardware which eventually gets fixed.
  - phaemon 10y ago
    > I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't typically save a configuration." It doesn't save a configuration by default. It gets the recommended resolution from the display and uses that. You can set custom resolutions from xorg.conf, or more easily with a ~/.xsession file but it's not required if you are happy with the defaults for your monitor. > It definitely needs one to run properly (xorg.conf). Nope, not for many years.

by mnm1 10y ago

terrywang 10y ago

X is really old and should be phased out. That's why Fedora has made Wayland the default display manager in latest Fedora 25. I have never had the problem you've described, most issue I've encountered (my VGA/GPU were all Intel/NVIDIA) can be fixed (using pseudo console, SSH, chroot etc...) without reinstall (which doesn't really fix the root cause). The issues you've mentioned, try to look for workarounds from distro wiki or stackoverflow (sister sites), or even Gentoo/Arch Docs, try to get mentor who's a Linux veteran will save you time and effort. I've been running rolling release for many years and it has never broken once after the sysV init -> systemd migration (I did a reinstall). Even Ubuntu / Kubuntu LTS versions have been stable, I wonder if it the VGA/GPU driver causing all the troubles. HTH

mnm1 10y ago
I'm hoping Wayland does indeed solve the problems X has. Unfortunately, it's not just one problem but a series of them spread over multiple machines from various vendors. This latest one I think is probably not the graphics driver as it did work fine for a couple of weeks but the trackpad driver. I think I might give Fedora 25 a shot and see if there's a difference. Without a doubt, however, Linux based OS's have come a very long way even in just the last 5 years, let alone the last 20. Mint KDE for example, works almost out of the box for me on my 2013 MbPro w/ external 4k monitor (except internal trackpad / Magic Trackpad 2). I suspect I'll be able to remove that "almost" in the next year or two if not sooner and once messing with X config is no longer required, hopefully X (or Wayland) will be stable.
digi_owl 10y ago
> X is really old and should be phased out. Yeah, let the CADT flow...

mgbmtl 10y ago

I'm confused by your comment. Why would you have to re-install your OS because of a problem with X? X doesn't typically save a configuration, it doesn't keep a registry, etc. Its settings get regenerated when it boots. Maybe you're encountering application configuration issues? Deleting/re-creating your user account should be enough (or finding the Gnome/KDE/other configuration that is causing problem, but I agree that can be hard to find). If your experience is mostly with Apple hardware, which I haven't used in a while, then you're taking a risk. The manufacturer/distributor is not playing nice with the community. I use mostly Intel generic hardware (including Intel video cards). At worst, I had to use Debian "testing" for the first few months after buying new hardware. Wayland fixes issues in the Linux security model, but otherwise I don't know how well it does on hardware where the manufacturer isn't contributing. You need to direct that feedback to the people to whom you gave a lot of money :/

mnm1 10y ago
I don't have to reinstall; I just don't have the patience to debug and fix X when it fails. I've definitely had plenty of problems with every single window manager I've ever tried which true, is not X itself, but plenty of the problems have been with graphics and input devices which X does handle. To be complete and clear then, the whole GUI system based on X, including X itself and window managers, has never been stable for me. I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't typically save a configuration." It definitely needs one to run properly (xorg.conf). As far as manufacturers, I've tried running this on Apple, Dell, Gateway, and desktop boxes I built over the years. There isn't much of a difference between any of them.
- csdreamer7 10y ago
  You can download Fedora 25 which uses Wayland on Intel graphics. With that said I haven't had any real issues with X itself in a long time. It is usually with the drivers in Mesa/Nvidia or the kernel with newer hardware which eventually gets fixed.
- phaemon 10y ago
  > I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't typically save a configuration." It doesn't save a configuration by default. It gets the recommended resolution from the display and uses that. You can set custom resolutions from xorg.conf, or more easily with a ~/.xsession file but it's not required if you are happy with the defaults for your monitor. > It definitely needs one to run properly (xorg.conf). Nope, not for many years.