7 ms·

What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing here. Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H

What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing here. Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days. Sell his house, pull kids out from school, etc. All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job.

ashwinaj 10y ago
About the risk taking, I spoke for myself and not for anyone else. Life is not a bed of roses, I've accepted that. When I got my H1B visa, I was aware of all the risks it involves. I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it. It's like buying an expensive car and complaining that you have to fill premium gas. Well, no one asked you to buy one, did they? Secondly, you are asserting that clerical errors are commonplace, where is the data for this? Anecdotal data doesn't count, since I don't know of anyone who was denied an H1B due to a clerical error. You might claim that you know a bunch who lost their visa. This discussion then degrades to a moot point without actual data.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service, which today is considered morally reprehensible. The point is not that the people who took that choice knew the risks they were taking. The point that the kind of situation H1B puts you into in its current form is not one that should exist, even if by choice. But it is also true that many folks are not aware of these risks. I have many friends in the States on H1B, many are completely unaware of this. Most have good employers so I doubt this will be a problem, but there's not as much awareness as there should be.
  - ashwinaj 10y ago
    > I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service Everytime there is an article about H1B, people start flinging "slavery" and "indentured servants". Please be honest and don't analogize H1B hurdles (which I agree exist) to situations where people were actually killed.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settled in but can't do so easily), and they also share the fallacy of making choice matter in the first place -- people aren't saying that H1B workers don't choose this, people are saying that it's bad to make them choose it in the first place. If you don't like the indentured servitude example, take minimum wage. If it didn't exist, many people would still be ok with being paid less. We have collectively decided that that is a bad thing. We have collectively decided that underpaying people is bad even if they choose to be okay with it. We don't say "hey, you chose an underpaying job over no job at all, you can't complain about it". Choice is a red herring in these discussions. Nobody is saying that H1B workers were forced into this. Folks are well aware they made a choice. That does not affect the argument that part of the "con" side of the choice is something that shouldn't exist in our society. You're free to disagree with that argument, but the "folks chose it" is not a rebuttal because that was never the premise.
      - ashwinaj 10y ago
        We respectfully disagree on this. You make valid points and thankfully it's not hyperbole. I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it, as I have no vote in this matter. And if I'm taking it, I'm making sure that I develop my skill set so that I make myself invaluable in future employment or if I venture on my own (and this doesn't have to be in the US), rather than wasting my brain cycles and waiting for this elusive piece of paper from the US government.
        Manishearth 10y ago
        > I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it I think you're seeing it from a personal POV, where you have a tradeoff where you've made a valid choice with what you have found to be a net gain. And you did explicitly mention that you're speaking for yourself initially. This is all a fine POV to have and I mostly agree with it; I know many people who have made a similar analysis and come to similar resolutions. My point is about "I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it", which is a more general statement about all H1B takers. I find it a bad precedent to set to accept that kind of argument; because like I said the discussion isn't about choice in the first place (and accepting such arguments distracts the decision). Like I said, it's fine to disagree with "H1B putting employees on a leash should be stopped", just don't use choice as an argument there :)
- brendangregg 10y ago
  How were you aware of all the risks involved? Did you hire your own immigration lawyer (NOT the company-retained one) and have them go through it with you? If so, then that's very wise. If you didn't, I very much doubt you knew of all the risks, since some I've never seen documented. I really think if you had one of the rough times on the H-1B, you wouldn't be so caviler.
  - ashwinaj 10y ago
    I spoke to my older brother (who left once his H1B was over, as he never wanted to stay here long term) and my seniors in grad school who explained all the intricacies; of course I never understood every single detail. But what I understood was getting a GC for an Indian citizen is a long wait. Frankly, I am okay leaving the US if I have to if I fall into any of the pitfalls. I don't have sleepless nights over it. And BTW, I got my H1B in the 2008 lottery and had to go through lean times during the recession. So it's not as if I've had a smooth ride all along.
    - brendangregg 10y ago
      What was the worst risk you learned about?
      - ashwinaj 10y ago
        - Being out of status - Indefinite wait for a GC for Indian citizens - Not being able to start your own business (there are caveats)
        brendangregg 10y ago
        You weren't aware of the risks. There's much worse than that. I am not a lawyer, and the following is not legal advice: get your own (experienced) immigration lawyer, and ask them about what I've heard one lawyer call "cost-effective employee retention plans". It can include threatening to unfairly ruin an employee's chances of ever getting another US visa if they leave the company. As in, you may never set foot in the US again. I'm not sure people can relate to how horrible this is unless you've unfortunately lived through it.
mortehu 10y ago
I've switched jobs on H-1B three times. All it takes is waiting for the replacement visa to come through before you resign. In each case I trusted my current employer and told them I was waiting for a visa for a new job, but I didn't have to.
- suryacom 10y ago
  If you are on H1B past 6 years, then you will need the copy of approved I-140 petition to get the H1B transferred to the new employer. But, H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition; it is employer's property.
  - ashwinaj 10y ago
    > H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition I have the I140 petitions from the two employers that I had applied with. This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage. No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do.
    - suryacom 10y ago
      >This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage This thread is discussing a law -- that targets only consulting companies. >No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do. That is not correct. There is nothing an H1B employee can do if his employer does not share the copy of I-140.
      - ashwinaj 10y ago
        Well they also talk about removing the master's degree quota. So it's not just about shady consulting companies.
        uiri 10y ago
        No, the Master's degree quota is unaffected by this legislation. The version of the bill presented in the previous congress is here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801... I expect the language of Rep Issa's bill for this session Congress to be largely unchanged. "Exempt" H-1B employees are not counted when determining whether or not an employer is H-1B dependent. Generally, an employer is H-1B dependent if over 15% of their employees are nonexempt H-1Bs. The old criteria for exempt status were: (a) at least $60k annual salary OR (b) Master's degree The new criterion proposed in the bill is: (a) at least $100k annual salary This explicitly targets companies like Infosys, Tata, etc. who use hordes of H-1Bs but pay them just over $60k or ensure that they have Master's degrees. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, et. al. will still be able to employ hordes of H-1Bs but they will be unaffected due to the high paying nature of the work.
freddyc 10y ago
> All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job Yes, getting fired sucks if you're on an H1B but your comment doesn't apply to job changers generally. H1B visas are transferable (with a little paperwork) so an employee looking to move jobs just needs to ensure that they have their ducks lined up and that any required paper work is filed - usually that means lighting a fire under the HR team of the new employer to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks.
- partycoder 10y ago
  They can be transferred, but you are still at risk until the other company gets the receipt from the USCIS which might take up to a couple of months.
  - fra 10y ago
    < 15 days if you file for premium processing
  - winter_blue 10y ago
    Couple of corrections: 1. You can start working for the new employer as soon as the petition has been sent out. For example, as soon as you have a FedEx/UPS tracking number for the petition, you can start the new job (even before receiving a Notice of Receipt). 2. You get a Notice of Receipt (form I-797C) usually in less than a week (and usually in about 3 days), if the petition was mailed in with overnight shipping. 3. Now receiving a Notice of Approval (form I-797A or I-797B) -- i.e. the actual adjudication of the petition, typically takes a couple of months with regular processing, but only 15 business days with premium processing.
winter_blue 10y ago
You are actually wrong about the 15 days. It's actually zero (0) days, according to USCIS: "There is no automatic 10-day or other grace period for terminated employees holding H-1B status, so once the individual is no longer in a lawful nonimmigrant status, he/she usually must depart from the United States." See: https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immigration-consequences-foreign-workers-slowing-economy https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immi... However, if your I-94 is still valid, being out-of-status on H-1B isn't really that big of a deal. All you need to do is fly out of the country and return, in order to fix your immigration status. The new employer can file an H-1B and request consular processing. The only problem with being out-of-status is that Adjustment Of Status (AOS) is no longer possible, so you have to fly out and fly back in, before you can start your new job. (You'll get an I-797A consular processing approval instead of the I-797B AOS approval.) USCIS does not deny petitions for being out of status, and in general, if any lack of legal status is for a period of less than 6 months. You don't need to get a new visa stamp either, if your current stamp is still valid. But if/when you renew your visa at a consulate, just make sure to disclose that you were out of status on the DS-160, as failing to do so could get you denied for lying. But if your upfront about it and disclose it, they most likely won't even ask you a question about it. And yes, you are illegal in the country, but if your I-94 is valid, you have "lawful presence" but you do not have "legal status" (I know it sounds contradictory) and you are still within your "period of authorized stay". But fundamentally, you are consider to be illegal despite a valid I-94 due to being out-of-status, and you can be deported, but it is very unlikely that DHS will send ICE agents to your home to arrest you and forcibly throw you out of the country. I've quit a job while I was on the H-1B, and I stayed while being out-of-status in the United States for 4 months after that. I was feeling a bit burned out, and didn't even look for a job for 3 months. In the fourth month, I created a profile on Hired.com, got several interview offers, did a full onsite in the first week, and had an offer by the end of the week. My H1B visa stamp in my passport was still valid, but I decided to get it renewed anyways, just to be sure, so there wouldn't be any trouble at the port-of-entry.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  I want to make a correction about the time you have to switch jobs on an H-1B visa. It's now officially 60 days, per new rules issued by DHS last year under Obama: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
BurningFrog 10y ago
> Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days This is not true in practice. There is a rule saying that, but it has never been enforced. As long as you don't leave the country, you'll have no problem looking for a new job for however long that takes. At least that's what my immigration lawyer told me many years ago.
- chrisper 10y ago
  Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I know I would not be able to. In fact, it's not something you can really rely on and make part of your plans. All you need is getting caught by some mad traffic cop and in court it turns out you are out of status and you will be deported.
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    > Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I actually have done that. ICE is very slow to deport even the categories they actually prioritize. Millions keep living here for decades. They're not monitoring traffic court for unemployed engineers. Sure, anything can happen, but the risk of dying in traffic or a crime is far more real than this.
- hatred 10y ago
  That has been true for many years that is _technically_ you would loose your status the day you lost your job and leave the country. However, there were ways around this. This has been recently changed though giving a grace period of 60 days and goes into effect from Jan 17: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
- shiro 10y ago
  Isn't betting on it risky? I'm afraid that you may get rejected reentry next time if USCIS notices your overstay, unless you never leave the country, of course, but you never know, don't you (family emergency etc.)?

ashwinaj 10y ago

About the risk taking, I spoke for myself and not for anyone else. Life is not a bed of roses, I've accepted that. When I got my H1B visa, I was aware of all the risks it involves. I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it. It's like buying an expensive car and complaining that you have to fill premium gas. Well, no one asked you to buy one, did they? Secondly, you are asserting that clerical errors are commonplace, where is the data for this? Anecdotal data doesn't count, since I don't know of anyone who was denied an H1B due to a clerical error. You might claim that you know a bunch who lost their visa. This discussion then degrades to a moot point without actual data.

Manishearth 10y ago
I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service, which today is considered morally reprehensible. The point is not that the people who took that choice knew the risks they were taking. The point that the kind of situation H1B puts you into in its current form is not one that should exist, even if by choice. But it is also true that many folks are not aware of these risks. I have many friends in the States on H1B, many are completely unaware of this. Most have good employers so I doubt this will be a problem, but there's not as much awareness as there should be.
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  > I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service Everytime there is an article about H1B, people start flinging "slavery" and "indentured servants". Please be honest and don't analogize H1B hurdles (which I agree exist) to situations where people were actually killed.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settled in but can't do so easily), and they also share the fallacy of making choice matter in the first place -- people aren't saying that H1B workers don't choose this, people are saying that it's bad to make them choose it in the first place. If you don't like the indentured servitude example, take minimum wage. If it didn't exist, many people would still be ok with being paid less. We have collectively decided that that is a bad thing. We have collectively decided that underpaying people is bad even if they choose to be okay with it. We don't say "hey, you chose an underpaying job over no job at all, you can't complain about it". Choice is a red herring in these discussions. Nobody is saying that H1B workers were forced into this. Folks are well aware they made a choice. That does not affect the argument that part of the "con" side of the choice is something that shouldn't exist in our society. You're free to disagree with that argument, but the "folks chose it" is not a rebuttal because that was never the premise.
    - ashwinaj 10y ago
      We respectfully disagree on this. You make valid points and thankfully it's not hyperbole. I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it, as I have no vote in this matter. And if I'm taking it, I'm making sure that I develop my skill set so that I make myself invaluable in future employment or if I venture on my own (and this doesn't have to be in the US), rather than wasting my brain cycles and waiting for this elusive piece of paper from the US government.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        > I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it I think you're seeing it from a personal POV, where you have a tradeoff where you've made a valid choice with what you have found to be a net gain. And you did explicitly mention that you're speaking for yourself initially. This is all a fine POV to have and I mostly agree with it; I know many people who have made a similar analysis and come to similar resolutions. My point is about "I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it", which is a more general statement about all H1B takers. I find it a bad precedent to set to accept that kind of argument; because like I said the discussion isn't about choice in the first place (and accepting such arguments distracts the decision). Like I said, it's fine to disagree with "H1B putting employees on a leash should be stopped", just don't use choice as an argument there :)
brendangregg 10y ago
How were you aware of all the risks involved? Did you hire your own immigration lawyer (NOT the company-retained one) and have them go through it with you? If so, then that's very wise. If you didn't, I very much doubt you knew of all the risks, since some I've never seen documented. I really think if you had one of the rough times on the H-1B, you wouldn't be so caviler.
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  I spoke to my older brother (who left once his H1B was over, as he never wanted to stay here long term) and my seniors in grad school who explained all the intricacies; of course I never understood every single detail. But what I understood was getting a GC for an Indian citizen is a long wait. Frankly, I am okay leaving the US if I have to if I fall into any of the pitfalls. I don't have sleepless nights over it. And BTW, I got my H1B in the 2008 lottery and had to go through lean times during the recession. So it's not as if I've had a smooth ride all along.
  - brendangregg 10y ago
    What was the worst risk you learned about?
    - ashwinaj 10y ago
      - Being out of status - Indefinite wait for a GC for Indian citizens - Not being able to start your own business (there are caveats)
      - brendangregg 10y ago
        You weren't aware of the risks. There's much worse than that. I am not a lawyer, and the following is not legal advice: get your own (experienced) immigration lawyer, and ask them about what I've heard one lawyer call "cost-effective employee retention plans". It can include threatening to unfairly ruin an employee's chances of ever getting another US visa if they leave the company. As in, you may never set foot in the US again. I'm not sure people can relate to how horrible this is unless you've unfortunately lived through it.

mortehu 10y ago

I've switched jobs on H-1B three times. All it takes is waiting for the replacement visa to come through before you resign. In each case I trusted my current employer and told them I was waiting for a visa for a new job, but I didn't have to.

suryacom 10y ago
If you are on H1B past 6 years, then you will need the copy of approved I-140 petition to get the H1B transferred to the new employer. But, H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition; it is employer's property.
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  > H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition I have the I140 petitions from the two employers that I had applied with. This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage. No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do.
  - suryacom 10y ago
    >This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage This thread is discussing a law -- that targets only consulting companies. >No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do. That is not correct. There is nothing an H1B employee can do if his employer does not share the copy of I-140.
    - ashwinaj 10y ago
      Well they also talk about removing the master's degree quota. So it's not just about shady consulting companies.
      - uiri 10y ago
        No, the Master's degree quota is unaffected by this legislation. The version of the bill presented in the previous congress is here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801... I expect the language of Rep Issa's bill for this session Congress to be largely unchanged. "Exempt" H-1B employees are not counted when determining whether or not an employer is H-1B dependent. Generally, an employer is H-1B dependent if over 15% of their employees are nonexempt H-1Bs. The old criteria for exempt status were: (a) at least $60k annual salary OR (b) Master's degree The new criterion proposed in the bill is: (a) at least $100k annual salary This explicitly targets companies like Infosys, Tata, etc. who use hordes of H-1Bs but pay them just over $60k or ensure that they have Master's degrees. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, et. al. will still be able to employ hordes of H-1Bs but they will be unaffected due to the high paying nature of the work.

freddyc 10y ago

> All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job Yes, getting fired sucks if you're on an H1B but your comment doesn't apply to job changers generally. H1B visas are transferable (with a little paperwork) so an employee looking to move jobs just needs to ensure that they have their ducks lined up and that any required paper work is filed - usually that means lighting a fire under the HR team of the new employer to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks.

partycoder 10y ago
They can be transferred, but you are still at risk until the other company gets the receipt from the USCIS which might take up to a couple of months.
- fra 10y ago
  < 15 days if you file for premium processing
- winter_blue 10y ago
  Couple of corrections: 1. You can start working for the new employer as soon as the petition has been sent out. For example, as soon as you have a FedEx/UPS tracking number for the petition, you can start the new job (even before receiving a Notice of Receipt). 2. You get a Notice of Receipt (form I-797C) usually in less than a week (and usually in about 3 days), if the petition was mailed in with overnight shipping. 3. Now receiving a Notice of Approval (form I-797A or I-797B) -- i.e. the actual adjudication of the petition, typically takes a couple of months with regular processing, but only 15 business days with premium processing.

winter_blue 10y ago

You are actually wrong about the 15 days. It's actually zero (0) days, according to USCIS: "There is no automatic 10-day or other grace period for terminated employees holding H-1B status, so once the individual is no longer in a lawful nonimmigrant status, he/she usually must depart from the United States." See: https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immigration-consequences-foreign-workers-slowing-economy https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immi... However, if your I-94 is still valid, being out-of-status on H-1B isn't really that big of a deal. All you need to do is fly out of the country and return, in order to fix your immigration status. The new employer can file an H-1B and request consular processing. The only problem with being out-of-status is that Adjustment Of Status (AOS) is no longer possible, so you have to fly out and fly back in, before you can start your new job. (You'll get an I-797A consular processing approval instead of the I-797B AOS approval.) USCIS does not deny petitions for being out of status, and in general, if any lack of legal status is for a period of less than 6 months. You don't need to get a new visa stamp either, if your current stamp is still valid. But if/when you renew your visa at a consulate, just make sure to disclose that you were out of status on the DS-160, as failing to do so could get you denied for lying. But if your upfront about it and disclose it, they most likely won't even ask you a question about it. And yes, you are illegal in the country, but if your I-94 is valid, you have "lawful presence" but you do not have "legal status" (I know it sounds contradictory) and you are still within your "period of authorized stay". But fundamentally, you are consider to be illegal despite a valid I-94 due to being out-of-status, and you can be deported, but it is very unlikely that DHS will send ICE agents to your home to arrest you and forcibly throw you out of the country. I've quit a job while I was on the H-1B, and I stayed while being out-of-status in the United States for 4 months after that. I was feeling a bit burned out, and didn't even look for a job for 3 months. In the fourth month, I created a profile on Hired.com, got several interview offers, did a full onsite in the first week, and had an offer by the end of the week. My H1B visa stamp in my passport was still valid, but I decided to get it renewed anyways, just to be sure, so there wouldn't be any trouble at the port-of-entry.

winter_blue 10y ago
I want to make a correction about the time you have to switch jobs on an H-1B visa. It's now officially 60 days, per new rules issued by DHS last year under Obama: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...

BurningFrog 10y ago

> Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days This is not true in practice. There is a rule saying that, but it has never been enforced. As long as you don't leave the country, you'll have no problem looking for a new job for however long that takes. At least that's what my immigration lawyer told me many years ago.

chrisper 10y ago
Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I know I would not be able to. In fact, it's not something you can really rely on and make part of your plans. All you need is getting caught by some mad traffic cop and in court it turns out you are out of status and you will be deported.
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  > Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I actually have done that. ICE is very slow to deport even the categories they actually prioritize. Millions keep living here for decades. They're not monitoring traffic court for unemployed engineers. Sure, anything can happen, but the risk of dying in traffic or a crime is far more real than this.
hatred 10y ago
That has been true for many years that is _technically_ you would loose your status the day you lost your job and leave the country. However, there were ways around this. This has been recently changed though giving a grace period of 60 days and goes into effect from Jan 17: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
shiro 10y ago
Isn't betting on it risky? I'm afraid that you may get rejected reentry next time if USCIS notices your overstay, unless you never leave the country, of course, but you never know, don't you (family emergency etc.)?