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> they cannot change job Correction: You can change jobs, but the green card process needs to start again but you keep your priority date. EDIT: You can change

> they cannot change job Correction: You can change jobs, but the green card process needs to start again but you keep your priority date. EDIT: You can change jobs to another "similar" position i.e. the job responsibilities should be similar. You can't move from an individual contributer to a manager position for example. In this case, the green card application will have to be done again. > That gives the employers full control of the employee Only if you let them. You are free to leave to another job, but many are risk averse. The employers expolit this; personally I am a risk taker so I don't see this as a hindrance. > So, hundreds of thousands highs killed immigrants Calling each and everyone highly skilled is questionable. A lot of H1B employees (and local employees for that matter) do not do highly skilled work, relatively speaking. I know this is controversial statement, but please be honest and avoid hyperbole.

suryacom 10y ago
What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing here. Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days. Sell his house, pull kids out from school, etc. All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job.
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  About the risk taking, I spoke for myself and not for anyone else. Life is not a bed of roses, I've accepted that. When I got my H1B visa, I was aware of all the risks it involves. I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it. It's like buying an expensive car and complaining that you have to fill premium gas. Well, no one asked you to buy one, did they? Secondly, you are asserting that clerical errors are commonplace, where is the data for this? Anecdotal data doesn't count, since I don't know of anyone who was denied an H1B due to a clerical error. You might claim that you know a bunch who lost their visa. This discussion then degrades to a moot point without actual data.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service, which today is considered morally reprehensible. The point is not that the people who took that choice knew the risks they were taking. The point that the kind of situation H1B puts you into in its current form is not one that should exist, even if by choice. But it is also true that many folks are not aware of these risks. I have many friends in the States on H1B, many are completely unaware of this. Most have good employers so I doubt this will be a problem, but there's not as much awareness as there should be.
    - ashwinaj 10y ago
      > I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service Everytime there is an article about H1B, people start flinging "slavery" and "indentured servants". Please be honest and don't analogize H1B hurdles (which I agree exist) to situations where people were actually killed.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settled in but can't do so easily), and they also share the fallacy of making choice matter in the first place -- people aren't saying that H1B workers don't choose this, people are saying that it's bad to make them choose it in the first place. If you don't like the indentured servitude example, take minimum wage. If it didn't exist, many people would still be ok with being paid less. We have collectively decided that that is a bad thing. We have collectively decided that underpaying people is bad even if they choose to be okay with it. We don't say "hey, you chose an underpaying job over no job at all, you can't complain about it". Choice is a red herring in these discussions. Nobody is saying that H1B workers were forced into this. Folks are well aware they made a choice. That does not affect the argument that part of the "con" side of the choice is something that shouldn't exist in our society. You're free to disagree with that argument, but the "folks chose it" is not a rebuttal because that was never the premise.
- mortehu 10y ago
  I've switched jobs on H-1B three times. All it takes is waiting for the replacement visa to come through before you resign. In each case I trusted my current employer and told them I was waiting for a visa for a new job, but I didn't have to.
  - suryacom 10y ago
    If you are on H1B past 6 years, then you will need the copy of approved I-140 petition to get the H1B transferred to the new employer. But, H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition; it is employer's property.
    - ashwinaj 10y ago
      > H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition I have the I140 petitions from the two employers that I had applied with. This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage. No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do.
      - suryacom 10y ago
        >This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage This thread is discussing a law -- that targets only consulting companies. >No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do. That is not correct. There is nothing an H1B employee can do if his employer does not share the copy of I-140.
        ashwinaj 10y ago
        Well they also talk about removing the master's degree quota. So it's not just about shady consulting companies.
        uiri 10y ago
        No, the Master's degree quota is unaffected by this legislation. The version of the bill presented in the previous congress is here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801... I expect the language of Rep Issa's bill for this session Congress to be largely unchanged. "Exempt" H-1B employees are not counted when determining whether or not an employer is H-1B dependent. Generally, an employer is H-1B dependent if over 15% of their employees are nonexempt H-1Bs. The old criteria for exempt status were: (a) at least $60k annual salary OR (b) Master's degree The new criterion proposed in the bill is: (a) at least $100k annual salary This explicitly targets companies like Infosys, Tata, etc. who use hordes of H-1Bs but pay them just over $60k or ensure that they have Master's degrees. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, et. al. will still be able to employ hordes of H-1Bs but they will be unaffected due to the high paying nature of the work.
- freddyc 10y ago
  > All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job Yes, getting fired sucks if you're on an H1B but your comment doesn't apply to job changers generally. H1B visas are transferable (with a little paperwork) so an employee looking to move jobs just needs to ensure that they have their ducks lined up and that any required paper work is filed - usually that means lighting a fire under the HR team of the new employer to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks.
  - partycoder 10y ago
    They can be transferred, but you are still at risk until the other company gets the receipt from the USCIS which might take up to a couple of months.
    - fra 10y ago
      < 15 days if you file for premium processing
    - winter_blue 10y ago
      Couple of corrections: 1. You can start working for the new employer as soon as the petition has been sent out. For example, as soon as you have a FedEx/UPS tracking number for the petition, you can start the new job (even before receiving a Notice of Receipt). 2. You get a Notice of Receipt (form I-797C) usually in less than a week (and usually in about 3 days), if the petition was mailed in with overnight shipping. 3. Now receiving a Notice of Approval (form I-797A or I-797B) -- i.e. the actual adjudication of the petition, typically takes a couple of months with regular processing, but only 15 business days with premium processing.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  You are actually wrong about the 15 days. It's actually zero (0) days, according to USCIS: "There is no automatic 10-day or other grace period for terminated employees holding H-1B status, so once the individual is no longer in a lawful nonimmigrant status, he/she usually must depart from the United States." See: https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immigration-consequences-foreign-workers-slowing-economy https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immi... However, if your I-94 is still valid, being out-of-status on H-1B isn't really that big of a deal. All you need to do is fly out of the country and return, in order to fix your immigration status. The new employer can file an H-1B and request consular processing. The only problem with being out-of-status is that Adjustment Of Status (AOS) is no longer possible, so you have to fly out and fly back in, before you can start your new job. (You'll get an I-797A consular processing approval instead of the I-797B AOS approval.) USCIS does not deny petitions for being out of status, and in general, if any lack of legal status is for a period of less than 6 months. You don't need to get a new visa stamp either, if your current stamp is still valid. But if/when you renew your visa at a consulate, just make sure to disclose that you were out of status on the DS-160, as failing to do so could get you denied for lying. But if your upfront about it and disclose it, they most likely won't even ask you a question about it. And yes, you are illegal in the country, but if your I-94 is valid, you have "lawful presence" but you do not have "legal status" (I know it sounds contradictory) and you are still within your "period of authorized stay". But fundamentally, you are consider to be illegal despite a valid I-94 due to being out-of-status, and you can be deported, but it is very unlikely that DHS will send ICE agents to your home to arrest you and forcibly throw you out of the country. I've quit a job while I was on the H-1B, and I stayed while being out-of-status in the United States for 4 months after that. I was feeling a bit burned out, and didn't even look for a job for 3 months. In the fourth month, I created a profile on Hired.com, got several interview offers, did a full onsite in the first week, and had an offer by the end of the week. My H1B visa stamp in my passport was still valid, but I decided to get it renewed anyways, just to be sure, so there wouldn't be any trouble at the port-of-entry.
  - winter_blue 10y ago
    I want to make a correction about the time you have to switch jobs on an H-1B visa. It's now officially 60 days, per new rules issued by DHS last year under Obama: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  > Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days This is not true in practice. There is a rule saying that, but it has never been enforced. As long as you don't leave the country, you'll have no problem looking for a new job for however long that takes. At least that's what my immigration lawyer told me many years ago.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I know I would not be able to. In fact, it's not something you can really rely on and make part of your plans. All you need is getting caught by some mad traffic cop and in court it turns out you are out of status and you will be deported.
    - BurningFrog 10y ago
      > Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I actually have done that. ICE is very slow to deport even the categories they actually prioritize. Millions keep living here for decades. They're not monitoring traffic court for unemployed engineers. Sure, anything can happen, but the risk of dying in traffic or a crime is far more real than this.
  - hatred 10y ago
    That has been true for many years that is _technically_ you would loose your status the day you lost your job and leave the country. However, there were ways around this. This has been recently changed though giving a grace period of 60 days and goes into effect from Jan 17: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
  - shiro 10y ago
    Isn't betting on it risky? I'm afraid that you may get rejected reentry next time if USCIS notices your overstay, unless you never leave the country, of course, but you never know, don't you (family emergency etc.)?
geebee 10y ago
I agree with your corrections, to an extent. However, it is also important to note that an H1B holder is limited in the kind of jobs he or she can take. An H1B holder would have a very difficult time changing fields or entering a very different kind of employment. Becoming a private consultant, or leaving the tech field for other, perhaps better, opportunities is not really an option. So while I certainly agree with you that "they cannot change job" is inaccurate I also believe the statement "you are free to leave to another job" is misleading. You have some very limited mobility rights, but nothing approaching what a free member of the labor market would have (sadly, this is a big part of the appeal of these visas to many employers).
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  You're right about that; you are only free to change your job for a "similar" position elsewhere.
throwaway2017ab 10y ago
have you ever thought about yourself as a "risk taker", about getting a greencard ? in 70 years ? Maybe you might have already got it through the L1A loophole fake experience method or future GC abuse method. Do not measure everyone else with the same cup.
- ashwinaj 10y ago
  Again, stop taking things personally, I spoke only about myself. I don't care if I get a green card or not (I know I'm in the minority as far as Indians are concerned). I'm happy to go back to India if the occasion arises. I'd rather concentrate on my career and do challenging work, instead of wasting my productive years doing donkey work for years on end, while waiting for some piece of paper. Everyone has their priorities, and in my mind I'm clear about mine.
rtpg 10y ago
So there's un-needed friction on the H-1B process that serves only to lower wages. Remove the link between H-1B visa holders and their employers and suddenly all that wage depression disappears! In Japan, while an employer can sponsor your work visa, after you obtain the visa you can change jobs at will (so long as its still within the broad category of visa you were given). You just need to signal the change of employer to the immigration office.
brendangregg 10y ago
"You are free to leave to another job" You SHOULD be free to quit, you're right about that. But some companies have figured out ways to stop it. If anyone is ever in that situation -- you have to get your own immigration lawyers to represent you, and not the company.

suryacom 10y ago

What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing here. Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days. Sell his house, pull kids out from school, etc. All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job.

ashwinaj 10y ago
About the risk taking, I spoke for myself and not for anyone else. Life is not a bed of roses, I've accepted that. When I got my H1B visa, I was aware of all the risks it involves. I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it. It's like buying an expensive car and complaining that you have to fill premium gas. Well, no one asked you to buy one, did they? Secondly, you are asserting that clerical errors are commonplace, where is the data for this? Anecdotal data doesn't count, since I don't know of anyone who was denied an H1B due to a clerical error. You might claim that you know a bunch who lost their visa. This discussion then degrades to a moot point without actual data.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service, which today is considered morally reprehensible. The point is not that the people who took that choice knew the risks they were taking. The point that the kind of situation H1B puts you into in its current form is not one that should exist, even if by choice. But it is also true that many folks are not aware of these risks. I have many friends in the States on H1B, many are completely unaware of this. Most have good employers so I doubt this will be a problem, but there's not as much awareness as there should be.
  - ashwinaj 10y ago
    > I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service Everytime there is an article about H1B, people start flinging "slavery" and "indentured servants". Please be honest and don't analogize H1B hurdles (which I agree exist) to situations where people were actually killed.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settled in but can't do so easily), and they also share the fallacy of making choice matter in the first place -- people aren't saying that H1B workers don't choose this, people are saying that it's bad to make them choose it in the first place. If you don't like the indentured servitude example, take minimum wage. If it didn't exist, many people would still be ok with being paid less. We have collectively decided that that is a bad thing. We have collectively decided that underpaying people is bad even if they choose to be okay with it. We don't say "hey, you chose an underpaying job over no job at all, you can't complain about it". Choice is a red herring in these discussions. Nobody is saying that H1B workers were forced into this. Folks are well aware they made a choice. That does not affect the argument that part of the "con" side of the choice is something that shouldn't exist in our society. You're free to disagree with that argument, but the "folks chose it" is not a rebuttal because that was never the premise.
mortehu 10y ago
I've switched jobs on H-1B three times. All it takes is waiting for the replacement visa to come through before you resign. In each case I trusted my current employer and told them I was waiting for a visa for a new job, but I didn't have to.
- suryacom 10y ago
  If you are on H1B past 6 years, then you will need the copy of approved I-140 petition to get the H1B transferred to the new employer. But, H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition; it is employer's property.
  - ashwinaj 10y ago
    > H1B visa holder does not have access to I-140 petition I have the I140 petitions from the two employers that I had applied with. This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage. No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do.
    - suryacom 10y ago
      >This sounds like you are talking about consulting companies who hold their employees hostage This thread is discussing a law -- that targets only consulting companies. >No legitimate company can do that and you have legal recourse if they do. That is not correct. There is nothing an H1B employee can do if his employer does not share the copy of I-140.
      - ashwinaj 10y ago
        Well they also talk about removing the master's degree quota. So it's not just about shady consulting companies.
        uiri 10y ago
        No, the Master's degree quota is unaffected by this legislation. The version of the bill presented in the previous congress is here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5801... I expect the language of Rep Issa's bill for this session Congress to be largely unchanged. "Exempt" H-1B employees are not counted when determining whether or not an employer is H-1B dependent. Generally, an employer is H-1B dependent if over 15% of their employees are nonexempt H-1Bs. The old criteria for exempt status were: (a) at least $60k annual salary OR (b) Master's degree The new criterion proposed in the bill is: (a) at least $100k annual salary This explicitly targets companies like Infosys, Tata, etc. who use hordes of H-1Bs but pay them just over $60k or ensure that they have Master's degrees. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, et. al. will still be able to employ hordes of H-1Bs but they will be unaffected due to the high paying nature of the work.
freddyc 10y ago
> All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job Yes, getting fired sucks if you're on an H1B but your comment doesn't apply to job changers generally. H1B visas are transferable (with a little paperwork) so an employee looking to move jobs just needs to ensure that they have their ducks lined up and that any required paper work is filed - usually that means lighting a fire under the HR team of the new employer to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks.
- partycoder 10y ago
  They can be transferred, but you are still at risk until the other company gets the receipt from the USCIS which might take up to a couple of months.
  - fra 10y ago
    < 15 days if you file for premium processing
  - winter_blue 10y ago
    Couple of corrections: 1. You can start working for the new employer as soon as the petition has been sent out. For example, as soon as you have a FedEx/UPS tracking number for the petition, you can start the new job (even before receiving a Notice of Receipt). 2. You get a Notice of Receipt (form I-797C) usually in less than a week (and usually in about 3 days), if the petition was mailed in with overnight shipping. 3. Now receiving a Notice of Approval (form I-797A or I-797B) -- i.e. the actual adjudication of the petition, typically takes a couple of months with regular processing, but only 15 business days with premium processing.
winter_blue 10y ago
You are actually wrong about the 15 days. It's actually zero (0) days, according to USCIS: "There is no automatic 10-day or other grace period for terminated employees holding H-1B status, so once the individual is no longer in a lawful nonimmigrant status, he/she usually must depart from the United States." See: https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immigration-consequences-foreign-workers-slowing-economy https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immi... However, if your I-94 is still valid, being out-of-status on H-1B isn't really that big of a deal. All you need to do is fly out of the country and return, in order to fix your immigration status. The new employer can file an H-1B and request consular processing. The only problem with being out-of-status is that Adjustment Of Status (AOS) is no longer possible, so you have to fly out and fly back in, before you can start your new job. (You'll get an I-797A consular processing approval instead of the I-797B AOS approval.) USCIS does not deny petitions for being out of status, and in general, if any lack of legal status is for a period of less than 6 months. You don't need to get a new visa stamp either, if your current stamp is still valid. But if/when you renew your visa at a consulate, just make sure to disclose that you were out of status on the DS-160, as failing to do so could get you denied for lying. But if your upfront about it and disclose it, they most likely won't even ask you a question about it. And yes, you are illegal in the country, but if your I-94 is valid, you have "lawful presence" but you do not have "legal status" (I know it sounds contradictory) and you are still within your "period of authorized stay". But fundamentally, you are consider to be illegal despite a valid I-94 due to being out-of-status, and you can be deported, but it is very unlikely that DHS will send ICE agents to your home to arrest you and forcibly throw you out of the country. I've quit a job while I was on the H-1B, and I stayed while being out-of-status in the United States for 4 months after that. I was feeling a bit burned out, and didn't even look for a job for 3 months. In the fourth month, I created a profile on Hired.com, got several interview offers, did a full onsite in the first week, and had an offer by the end of the week. My H1B visa stamp in my passport was still valid, but I decided to get it renewed anyways, just to be sure, so there wouldn't be any trouble at the port-of-entry.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  I want to make a correction about the time you have to switch jobs on an H-1B visa. It's now officially 60 days, per new rules issued by DHS last year under Obama: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
BurningFrog 10y ago
> Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days This is not true in practice. There is a rule saying that, but it has never been enforced. As long as you don't leave the country, you'll have no problem looking for a new job for however long that takes. At least that's what my immigration lawyer told me many years ago.
- chrisper 10y ago
  Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I know I would not be able to. In fact, it's not something you can really rely on and make part of your plans. All you need is getting caught by some mad traffic cop and in court it turns out you are out of status and you will be deported.
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    > Would you really be able to sleep well every night on the premise "it's okay, it hasn't been enforced yet" if you are unemployed on an H1B? I actually have done that. ICE is very slow to deport even the categories they actually prioritize. Millions keep living here for decades. They're not monitoring traffic court for unemployed engineers. Sure, anything can happen, but the risk of dying in traffic or a crime is far more real than this.
- hatred 10y ago
  That has been true for many years that is _technically_ you would loose your status the day you lost your job and leave the country. However, there were ways around this. This has been recently changed though giving a grace period of 60 days and goes into effect from Jan 17: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
- shiro 10y ago
  Isn't betting on it risky? I'm afraid that you may get rejected reentry next time if USCIS notices your overstay, unless you never leave the country, of course, but you never know, don't you (family emergency etc.)?

geebee 10y ago

I agree with your corrections, to an extent. However, it is also important to note that an H1B holder is limited in the kind of jobs he or she can take. An H1B holder would have a very difficult time changing fields or entering a very different kind of employment. Becoming a private consultant, or leaving the tech field for other, perhaps better, opportunities is not really an option. So while I certainly agree with you that "they cannot change job" is inaccurate I also believe the statement "you are free to leave to another job" is misleading. You have some very limited mobility rights, but nothing approaching what a free member of the labor market would have (sadly, this is a big part of the appeal of these visas to many employers).

ashwinaj 10y ago
You're right about that; you are only free to change your job for a "similar" position elsewhere.

throwaway2017ab 10y ago

have you ever thought about yourself as a "risk taker", about getting a greencard ? in 70 years ? Maybe you might have already got it through the L1A loophole fake experience method or future GC abuse method. Do not measure everyone else with the same cup.

ashwinaj 10y ago
Again, stop taking things personally, I spoke only about myself. I don't care if I get a green card or not (I know I'm in the minority as far as Indians are concerned). I'm happy to go back to India if the occasion arises. I'd rather concentrate on my career and do challenging work, instead of wasting my productive years doing donkey work for years on end, while waiting for some piece of paper. Everyone has their priorities, and in my mind I'm clear about mine.

rtpg 10y ago

So there's un-needed friction on the H-1B process that serves only to lower wages. Remove the link between H-1B visa holders and their employers and suddenly all that wage depression disappears! In Japan, while an employer can sponsor your work visa, after you obtain the visa you can change jobs at will (so long as its still within the broad category of visa you were given). You just need to signal the change of employer to the immigration office.

brendangregg 10y ago

"You are free to leave to another job" You SHOULD be free to quit, you're right about that. But some companies have figured out ways to stop it. If anyone is ever in that situation -- you have to get your own immigration lawyers to represent you, and not the company.